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 Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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 What do you know about time? 
#1791063 - 08/08/03 03:39 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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There was 2 experiments I heard of with some very interesting results.
1 was an atomic clock placed in a plane and flown round the world which was compared to an atomic clock in a stationery position.
They found the clock which flew to be a fraction of a second behind.
It is also beleived that if a human was to travel in a spaceship at high speeds for a few years when they return everyone else will of aged and they will still be young.
To me this all means that time is physical and somehow related to movement. Anybody else know anything about this?
Also, there was an experiment in which one particle is in a vacuum and accelerated to huge speeds, when it reaches a certain point a second partical appears and can be physically measured. What does all this imply?
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 Kenny Bus
The enlightend
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 321
Loc: ontario
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 Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Ego Death]
#1791066 - 08/08/03 03:41 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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time travel is possible!
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KB
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Kenny Bus]
#1791222 - 08/08/03 06:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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Earth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: gnrm23]
#1791250 - 08/08/03 06:42 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I travel through time on LSD.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Ego Death]
#1791330 - 08/08/03 07:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Einstein was the first to realize that time and space may be intimately related. "Spacetime" was the concept that resulted.
In physics we view Time as just another dimension, much the same as the three spatial dimensions we are used to (length/width/height).
Try and think of it like this:
Say you are standing on the corner of a soccer field. Two lines stretch out from your feet at a 90 degree angle. Lets say that one direction is the "spatial dimension" and the other direction is the "temporal dimension". The field itself is Spacetime.
You are always moving at a certain speed through spacetime. This speed is the speed of light. If you are not moving AT ALL in the spatial direction, you are moving at your maximum possible speed through the temporal dimension. You would be running down the temporal sideline of our soccer field.
But say you DO decide to move through the spatial dimension. This means you have to LEAVE the sideline and venture out into the field. Now you are moving through BOTH time and space, but your ABSOLUTE VELOCITY trough spacetime remains the same: the speed of light. But because you are moving not only through time, but also through space...your movement through time is slowed to allow your movement through space.
Now if you ran all the way up the spatial line, say at the speed of light (your maximum possible speed), you wouldn't be moving through time AT ALL. You are moving at a "right angle" to it, if you catch what I mean.
This helps explain why time is delayed during movement.
Did you also know that if you are moving you undergo length-contraction (meaning you actually "squish" slightly flatter) and also gain mass as you are moving.
The length-contraction is a little harder to explain, but you gain mass while moving because of e=mc^2. Some of the energy you put into accelerating yourself is converted into extra mass that you carry while in motion. This is one reason why light-speed travel may be impossible: as you approach the speed of light, your mass approaches infinity. Since it takes more energy to accelerate more mass...you will continually need more and more energy to accelerate just a LITTLE closer to the speed of light. Eventually it would take all the energy in the universe just to accelerate you by even the smallest ammount.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: trendal]
#1791713 - 08/08/03 10:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That was one of the better metaphorical explainations of spacetime I've ever heard, Trendal. Nicely done.
Dano - if you wanna learn more, Stephen Hawking's books are outstanding, and easy to read - not overly complicated. Of course, if you've had a year or two of physics, it won't hurt 
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Kenny Bus]
#1791768 - 08/08/03 10:37 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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we're travelling through time right now..
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Strumpling]
#1791787 - 08/08/03 10:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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How fast does the earth spin? Does that even matter?
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: trendal]
#1792013 - 08/08/03 12:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Try and think of it like this:
Another way to picture this is to think of all physical things as composed of stuff that is always in motion (in 3D-space) at the speed of light. In stationary objects this stuff is moving back and forth, or in loops. So stationary objects are associated with cyclic motion, and it is easy to see that the time period for any such cycle will be lengthened when the object itself is set in motion: the loop becomes longer, the speed is constant, so it takes more time to traverse the loop.
Length contraction comes from the mathematics of how the effect described above varies with the direction of motion.
These effects work exactly in the same way on measuring devices as on the things they measure, so from the point of view of a travelling object, no slowing down can be detected in any of the object's cyclic motions.
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: tak]
#1792029 - 08/08/03 12:08 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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earth rotates about 1,000 miles per hour at the equator (circumference at equator just about 25,000 miles, spins once per day, 24 hours in a day... 360 degrees in a circle / 24 hours in a day, so 15 degrees of arc per hour...
of course, the earth is not just rotating about its axis, but also revolving around the sun along its little elliptical orbit, while the sun & the rocks & gas balls in its family ("the solar system") is moving through the galaxy, and also rotating about the galactic center (yeah, about once every 250,000,000 years or so...), while our galaxy ("the milky way") is moving within the local group, and that is moving within & along with local supercluster, and... gollygee, everything is redshifting away from us, what's up with that ...
~
"space is the place"
(sun ra and his intergalactic myth/science arkestra)
~
~
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: gnrm23]
#1792035 - 08/08/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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does all this movement effect us? if we were not moving would time not exist?
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: tak]
#1792049 - 08/08/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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well...
if we were "at rest" (the old "inertial frame of reference" ploy, mmmkay?) time would still be ticking along at one second per second...
and even if we were not moving (x,y,z axes) well, we'd still be full of vibratory subsystems, eh? i mean, everything is like, vibrating, dude...
~
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"the way i see it, barry, the universe is, like, this one big note, and everything in it is just harmonics..."
~
(from the mothers of invention present abnucheal emuka's electronic symphony orchestra playing "lumpy gravy", being part two of "we're only in it for the money")
~
~
~
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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dibbles
Just a normalguy with nothingto lose.
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 554
Loc: Exactly where you'd never...
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: gnrm23]
#1792265 - 08/08/03 01:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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About aging, I find it hard to believe that travel at extreme speeds would somehow make you age slower, your body will still go through the same processes and the biological aspects would stay that same, although it would be arguable that your sense of time would be altered in comparison to others who would be traveling at "normal" spacetime. Also in addition, I believe time travel may be possible but the ability to change the past is impossible, because traveling back in time you would essentialy only see the light of the past, however it would be analyzed it would probaly be almost like watching a movie of the past.And even if you could change this preverbial "movie", the original event would still have happened...my 2 cents
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You've succumb to an empty fate, your false prophets are gone, your life,meaningless, your heart and head broken, and we're all laughing.
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: dibbles]
#1792324 - 08/08/03 01:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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well, at 98%c the timeslip between the moving vehicle & the "at rest" observer would be over 600 to 1 (ummm, about 637.7 to 1) so if the stationary observer could measure the traveler's heartbeat, he would find it beating maybe once every 10 minutes or so (by the non-moving clock, mmmkay?)(of course, by the shipboard clock, regular heartbeats, 64 beats per minute, hehheh...)
T = T(o) over the square root of (1 minus (vee squared over cee squared))
okeydokey?
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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2Experimental
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: gnrm23]
#1792789 - 08/08/03 03:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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"This is one reason why light-speed travel may be impossible: as you approach the speed of light, your mass approaches infinity. Since it takes more energy to accelerate more mass...you will continually need more and more energy to accelerate just a LITTLE closer to the speed of light."
That kinda makes sense trendal, but wouldent it actually take less energy to go faster, the faster you were going? Im thinking momentum.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: gnrm23]
#1792794 - 08/08/03 03:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think gravity affects time. <-Just a theroy thow.
It is said that if time travel were possable, only travel to the future can occur. This makes sense to me, because your mass would have to be able to exist in that temporal universe you are traveling to.
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: 2Experimental]
#1792870 - 08/08/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Momentum will keep you moving at a constant speed, but it won't accelerate you at all.
F=ma is the relevant equation. Force is equal to mass times acceleration. If we take a to be any positive value (meaning we are still accelerating) then as we approach the speed of light m becomes increasingly large and approaches infinity. The right side of the equation increases, so does the left. More and more force is required as you increase your speed, because as you increase your speed your mass increases.
The more force that is needed, the more energy is needed. And that's why light-speed travel is impossible for anything containing mass.
Massless particles obviously don't have a problem travelling at the speed of light, and I think all massless particles do travel at the speed of light in a vacuum.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Murex]
#1793249 - 08/08/03 05:55 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Murex said:
I think gravity affects time. <-Just a theroy thow.
I recall reading a report a while back that the gravitational location of the sun (its position as measured by its gravitational effect on the observer) was ahead of the visible location of the sun by exactly C/[distance of sun from earth].
The conclusion would seem to be that gravity propagates instantaneously - ie, an alteration in a source of gravity will instantaneously alter its entire gravitational field accordingly.
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"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks (RIP)
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Murex]
#1793272 - 08/08/03 06:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes gravity does affect time 
Gravity, according to Einstein, is a warping of spacetime. We "feel" gravity because the space around us is warped. The time around us is also warped, but we can't feel that directly in the way we can gravity. Plus time on the surface of the earth is not affected that much.
Near a black hole, though, gravity becomes so strong that the curvature of spacetime becomes infinite - tearing spacetime apart. At the event horizon of a black hole time ceases to move at all.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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LikwidDrawp
Dance EnergyConjuror
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 873
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: trendal]
#1793433 - 08/08/03 06:47 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Time doesnt exist, but if you can make your way up into meditation who needs to physically travel through time? Tap into the cosmic library.
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Ego Death]
#1793501 - 08/08/03 07:02 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It slows down when I am at work, and speeds up when I'm not. 
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: shakta]
#1793628 - 08/08/03 07:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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time is an invention of man, and just as flawed
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: DoctorJ]
#1793737 - 08/08/03 08:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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time exists, in the sense that things change.
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Lazerouth
Drunkard
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Earth_Droid]
#1794120 - 08/08/03 10:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i have a clock on my wall.
the little hand is pointing to 6 and the big hand is pointing to 12.
it is 6 o'clock am
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension 
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Shroomism]
#1794139 - 08/08/03 10:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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nice observation lazerouth, too bad you are trapped within your culture's confines.
if you were a mesopotamian, you would be eating potatoe soup and praying to the sun-god.
monkey/ape
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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ohhh nooo, im getttttting nautttious what have i done to myseeeellffff
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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You probably disrupted a chi cavity.
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Shroomism]
#1794164 - 08/08/03 10:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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where is the nearest chi dentist? i need to remove all the built up calcium in my skull-box!
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Acu-puncture
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Shroomism]
#1794177 - 08/08/03 11:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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hmmm, do you think I could self-medicate with my scissors?
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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No, but you could massage your hands and arms in circular motions.
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: What do you know about time? [Re: Pyronate]
#1794770 - 08/09/03 06:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The conclusion would seem to be that gravity propagates instantaneously - ie, an alteration in a source of gravity will instantaneously alter its entire gravitational field accordingly.
To Isaac Newton this was a big mystery. He found it hard to believe that any force could affect distant things instantaneously with no intermediary force carrier. But he couldn't explain why gravitation worked like it did.
The mystery was solved in Einstein's theory of gravitation. All gravitational effects propagate at the speed of light, but the direction of the force does not point to the original location of the gravitating object. The motion of the gravitating object contributes to the force with an additional component that alters the direction so it points to the instantaneous location for certain types of motion. Those types of motion are the ones that have zero or constant acceleration, or a vanishing third derivative of position. For most bodies in the solar system this means that the force almost but not exactly points at the instantaneous position of the other body.
There is a similar alteration of the force direction of the electrical force, when the originating charge is moving. This is caused by the magnetic component of the electromagnetic force, and in this case it compensates only for motion with constant velocity, or a vanishing second derivative of position. I saw an explanation for why this differs from the gravitational effect, but I forget it now...
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