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Anonymous

?
    #1788384 - 08/07/03 02:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

if you're starving to death, is it morally wrong to steal food?

if you're dying from a disease, and a medicine can save you but you cannot afford it, is it wrong to steal it?


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

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Re: ? [Re: ]
    #1788436 - 08/07/03 02:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

These are sins which can be forgiven.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: ? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1788447 - 08/07/03 02:46 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

you presume that everyone thinks stealing is wrong in the first place.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: ? [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1788456 - 08/07/03 02:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lazerouth said:
you presume that everyone thinks stealing is wrong in the first place.



No I don't.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: ]
    #1788766 - 08/07/03 03:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if you're starving to death, is it morally wrong to steal food?

if you're dying from a disease, and a medicine can save you but you cannot afford it, is it wrong to steal it?




I think the real question is, should people with an excess of food/cures be allowed to hoard them on basis of "just because they want to" while there are people who are dying and suffering and are in misery because said goods are unnatainable for them?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: ? [Re: ]
    #1788865 - 08/07/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

why do you ask? what is your situation?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinedawn of a new day
un inglohablante

Registered: 01/16/03
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Re: ? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1788942 - 08/07/03 04:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

neutralizer said:

I think the real question is, should people with an excess of food/cures be allowed to hoard them on basis of "just because they want to" while there are people who are dying and suffering and are in misery because said goods are unnatainable for them?




Good point here. I think that one should help others who are obviously suffering and in need of help if they're able, but where to draw the line? There are huge amounts of people suffering around the world. Should we only help those that we see around us, or should we feel obligated to help starving people in third world countries as well?


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"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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OfflinePyronate
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Re: ? [Re: ]
    #1789340 - 08/07/03 06:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Forget the petty issue of morality, and focus instead on what you think is good for you.


Morality is nothing more than a socioreligious construct designed to keep the masses in line.


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"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: ? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1789349 - 08/07/03 06:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Isn't morality in some way governed by emotion?


Edited by MindTrap (08/07/03 06:54 PM)


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: MindTrap]
    #1789377 - 08/07/03 06:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Can you have an absolute morality without a specific religious/spiritual belief to back it up?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: ? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1789389 - 08/07/03 06:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Are you suggesting that emotions such as guilt would not exist in the absense of civilization?


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: MindTrap]
    #1789451 - 08/07/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Not everyone feels guilt at the same level about the same things. Something you may consider deplorable and would cause you to be racked with guilt could be perfectly fine to someone else. After all, without a god to tell you what's right or wrong, who's to decide?


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: ? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1789475 - 08/07/03 07:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps you're right.

Even primates exhibit emotions but would they be considered to have a sense of morality?


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: MindTrap]
    #1789491 - 08/07/03 07:24 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe, but if one of them decides it's his right to go and kill a bunch of other primates, the others would probably either flee from him to a safe place, or attack and kill him. We as humans are ultimately unable to do either, unless you plan to move to a different planet or to spend the life in jail for murder.

So what do we do with our aggression?

We move to america, and take part of its aggressive-fetish culture. We run corrupt businesses, exploit people, shoot each other (more gun deaths than any other industrialized society - many have under 1K, we have over 11K), abuse ourselves, and lose our identity so we don't have to deal with the consequeces. That's just America, I'm sure you won't have any trouble finding examples of aggression in other parts of the world (America is such a good example, how could others not follow). Sorry, that's a bit rambly. But I think I was trying to say that even if there is a morality among animals, we as humans have stepped in and changed how things work, similar to how we are doing the same thing with genetic engineering and evolution. We're screwing up how everything used to be, what will happen as a result?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/07/03 07:32 PM)


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: ? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1789512 - 08/07/03 07:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

But, I suppose it could be argued that there are men who would choose to do the same things.

Morality seems to be a human construct for the purpose of creating order from chaos.

But then what purpose does an emotion like guilt have from an evolutionary standpoint?

I also don't think that morality is necessarily a result of religion but more a result of civilization.

If we were to all adopt emipiricist attitudes and discard any concept of spirituality I doubt that we would abondon morality.


Edited by MindTrap (08/07/03 07:44 PM)


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: MindTrap]
    #1789535 - 08/07/03 07:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If there were men who would choose to do such things and if that was the majority of popular opinion, then why are most governments of the world not set up that way?

You asked about guilt, I'll do you one better:  Love.  What's love got to do with anything?  A very plausable answer is that it exists to draw a male and female together so they will mate and have offspring, also so that the male and female will stay together for a long time to raise the child into its teenage years (completely opposite of other animals, the offspring almost never stay with parents as long as ours).  Do animals who mate for life have feelings akin to our feeling of love?  And if this is all correct, then what the heck are homosexuals doing here?

I do agree with you about morality being a result of our civilization.  I think it's inherent in the way our civilization arose and developed.  It goes really well with a theistic race of beings, don't you think?  God/gods, demons, devils, good and evil, all that has an inherent morality built right into the system.  Even nontheistic spiritual paths have a tendency to have, or at least seem to have a sense of morality about them.  What prehistoric culture didn't have religion or some kind of spirituality or code of ethics as at least some part of it?  How many cultures throughout history have existed without at least some sense of morality?

As spiritual beings, I dont think that we can completely discard all feelings of spirituality :wink:  so I don't think that experiment could take place anyway, at least not beyond a superficial level while we exist as humans.  Hehe.. 


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/07/03 07:45 PM)


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: ? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1789560 - 08/07/03 07:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I would suggest that the majority of the population do exhibit emotions such as guilt and love. I see no reason to focus on the exceptions.

Perhaps these are the evolutionary mechanisms which produced our construct of morailty. Perhaps it's inevitable in any advanced species.


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: ? [Re: MindTrap]
    #1789581 - 08/07/03 07:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps. But as the majority of this world's population exists in let's just say unfavorable conditions, I don't think that this current system will exist forever - including many concepts, possibly including guilt and love. Perhaps these things will change? Perhaps not. (Although I seem to be arguing the invaladity of things like love, I really do enjoy being a human and have a great hope for humanity. I see our potential - the reason I can be so negative/misanthropic at times is because I get frustrated at the difference between what we could be and what we are. I hope things like love stay, and that the improving of things like our crappy way of government and of treating ourselves and each other will be enough of a change to make a difference.)


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/07/03 07:55 PM)


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