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Pianoplayah
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Did I sterilized my rye jars properly?
#17863552 - 02/25/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hi, this is my first time growing and I wanted to ask if the method I'm using to sterilize my rye is going to work out. I want to grow with rye grains, which I already soaked for around 14 hours after rinsing all the dirt out. this morning I simmered the rye for around 45 mins, though I was not sure if I used enough water for the simmer. there was always an extra 1 inch layer of water over the rye grains. They ended up with a nice brown colour and were not sticking togeter. I let them rinse for 5 mins so I guess they were maybe still too wet? I just read that one should dry them on paper towels or the like; is that necessary?
For sterilization I was planing on using fractional sterilization, since I do not own a PC. Now I read, that it is quite better to sterilize for 8 hrs straight, but I wanted to sterilize 3 days in a row (24 hrs cycle) with 2x 30 min and 1 x 70 mins? the first sterilization already happened this morning. Here my jars preparation, so you can get a better picture.
I got 400 ml jars filled 2/3 with simmered rye. after adding the rye in the jars before steaming, there was a little bit of water building up on the inside of the jars where the rye is touch it. is that a problem? Im using a regular lid with a polyfil filter as "breather" and another hole for the inoculation. I wraped the lid with 2 layers of tin foil to prefend water entering. I did not cover the inoculation hole with a tape or the like! Am I going to get contaminations or a too high ratio of water for the rye, because the water condensation build up on the tin foil and enter through the inoculation hole (its size is about 2-3 mm)? Then I covered the bottom of every jar with a small tinfoil ring, so they are not directly in contact with the hot bottom of the pot. Though these rings are not really high and Im not sure if they will serve their purpose... So I added water in the pot, let it cook and then placed my covered jars with tin foil ring on the bottom in the pot. I let them steam for 30 mins for the first period of the fractional sterilization. the water level was quite high I assume, since the boiling water was maybe reaching halfway up the jars, but never reached the upper part of the jars of course.
Is this a proper technique to sterilize my rye? If not, do I need to start over again? I mean, if the 8 hrs straight sterilization is working better, could I not just sterilize my substrate tomorrow again for 8 hrs? Or should I just increase the time for the fractional sterilization and do 3 more rounds, so Im fine?
also: I worked very carefully and always in a very clean working area, I washed the jars and lids in the washing mashine and then wipped them with desinfection several times before filling with rye. I showered before working, wore fresh laundred clothing, a mouth protection and of course desinfected cloves. That should be good for the start I assume, so maybe there is a better chance of being ok with my procedure for now?
I appreciate every tip and help from you guys!
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PussyFart
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Pianoplayah]
#17863577 - 02/25/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Steam sterilizing them for 8 hours would get you as better success rate than fractional sterilization.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Badaboom
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: PussyFart]
#17863800 - 02/25/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seems you went all out Just one thing I got kind of lost on.. did you inoculate then sanitize?
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shroomsisay
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Badaboom]
#17863902 - 02/25/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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You should have soaked for 24 hours although 14 may have been enough. Then you should have boiled for 10 mins strained them in a strainer until room temp. This way you would have not had to worry about anything. My grains come out perfect every time. I do rinse before I boil but no rinse afterwords. I Also use gypsum in the soak.
-------------------- I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. If your not living on the edge your taking up to much space!!
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Pianoplayah
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Badaboom]
#17863976 - 02/25/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, this would be pretty tough to do =P I dishwashed my jars and sanatized them the last time about 15 minutes before filling them with the simmered rye. Afterwards I boiled the jars for 30 mins following the idee of fractional sterilization. When my jars are steril and cooled down, I wanted to inoculated in a glovebox. It has 2 holes on the sides where I can put my hands through, but there are no gloves appached to the box. Will that work, or do I need improment on that one as well?
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Shroomacabra
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: shroomsisay]
#17864014 - 02/25/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, you did not sterilize your rye grains at all. Sterilization, by definition, means you have to raise the temperature to 250 degrees F for X amount of time (depending on what you are trying to sterilize). The only way to achieve those temperatures is in a pressure cooker, an autoclave or dry sterilization in an oven. As dry sterilization is bad for this hobby, the only real alternative most home hobbyists have is a pressure cooker. Not many of us have access to an autoclave. Steaming for 8 hours is still considered pasteurization. "Fractional sterilization" as you call it is still considered pasteurization. These two methods do not achieve and maintain the 250 degrees required for textbook sterilization.
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HypnotoadCroaked
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Shroomacabra]
#17864079 - 02/25/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Fractal Sterilization of grain does work. I did a few quarts 2 months ago and 3 of them were never used, and have yet to be growing anything. I did 90 minutes a day 3 days in a row. It is a HUGE waste of time, and getting a pressure cooker is worth every bit of it.
Also, you need 10 minutes in the simmer for grains. You want to get them hot so they evaporate most of their external water. Sounds like you cooked them. Dunno if that would work or not.
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PussyFart
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Shroomacabra]
#17864112 - 02/25/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomsisay said: Steaming for 8 hours is still considered pasteurization.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Ive heard that you can succesfully steam sterilize whole grain(specifically WBS). The catch is that takes a hell of a lot longer. Like for 1/2 pint jars 2hrs a day for 3 days longer. This gives the bacteria specific to this substrate adequate time to become vulnerable enough to die
That method is outdated and prone to failure. You can prepare and jar the grains as shown in Let's Grow Mushrooms and load into quart/liter jars. Steam sterilize for 8 hours in one setting. Keep a second pot of water boiling to use when adding water, because you'll need to do it every half hour or so. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15753434#15753434
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If you steamed the grains for 8 hours, then you can consider them sterile enough to give the mycelium time to reach full colonization. The old 'fractional sterilization' teks don't work 90% of the time, but steaming for 8 hours works 100% of the time for me and I'm not at sea level, but in the mountains. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17397016#17397016
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Fractional sterilization fails 90% or greater of the time.
Steam grain jars as in the brf tek for 8 hours all at once if you don't have a pressure cooker. Keep a second pot of water on the stove boiling so you can add water as needed several times over that 8 hours. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17046622#17046622
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Shroomacabra
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: PussyFart]
#17864230 - 02/25/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
shroomsisay said: Steaming for 8 hours is still considered pasteurization.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Ive heard that you can succesfully steam sterilize whole grain(specifically WBS). The catch is that takes a hell of a lot longer. Like for 1/2 pint jars 2hrs a day for 3 days longer. This gives the bacteria specific to this substrate adequate time to become vulnerable enough to die
That method is outdated and prone to failure. You can prepare and jar the grains as shown in Let's Grow Mushrooms and load into quart/liter jars. Steam sterilize for 8 hours in one setting. Keep a second pot of water boiling to use when adding water, because you'll need to do it every half hour or so. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15753434#15753434
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If you steamed the grains for 8 hours, then you can consider them sterile enough to give the mycelium time to reach full colonization. The old 'fractional sterilization' teks don't work 90% of the time, but steaming for 8 hours works 100% of the time for me and I'm not at sea level, but in the mountains. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17397016#17397016
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Fractional sterilization fails 90% or greater of the time.
Steam grain jars as in the brf tek for 8 hours all at once if you don't have a pressure cooker. Keep a second pot of water on the stove boiling so you can add water as needed several times over that 8 hours. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17046622#17046622
Not sure what your point is. You quoted 3 different RR quotes and they all pretty much say the same thing. Not considered sterilization, but you can get it sterile enough to work. Also said fractional does not work. Even RR put "Fractional Sterilization" in quotes. The original OP question is "Did I sterilized my rye jars properly?" and I answered no. It may work some of the time, but it is not considered true sterilization.
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PussyFart
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Shroomacabra]
#17864239 - 02/25/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Steaming for 8 hours is not considered pasteurization.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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HypnotoadCroaked
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: PussyFart]
#17864342 - 02/25/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am just pointing out the fact that the first things I ever tried to sterilize were 4 quarts of grain. I steamed them 3 days in a row @ 212. Is it "recommended". No. I don't recommend it because what can be done in a Pressure cooker in 1/3 of the time or less.
Point of the matter, that Fractal sterilization may be not recommended, but if done correctly it accomplishes the means necessary for this hobby. It does work, and failure is from not adhering to specific schedules. It must be done every 24 hours....not later in the day.....
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Pianoplayah
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: shroomsisay]
#17867214 - 02/26/13 01:38 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomsisay said: You should have soaked for 24 hours although 14 may have been enough. Then you should have boiled for 10 mins strained them in a strainer until room temp. This way you would have not had to worry about anything. My grains come out perfect every time. I do rinse before I boil but no rinse afterwords. I Also use gypsum in the soak.
OK then I will start over again and follow your procedure. Is boiling really a good idea? I thought then the rye will split open and there would be a lot of starch produced?
To safe me some pain and time, I will borrow a PC to sterilize my new properly prepared rye. I was intending to wrap up the jars the same way as before, so no tape on the inoculation hole for now (after inoculation I wanted to cover with band aid), a breather with polyfil, lid tight on the jars and covered with 2 layers of tinfoil.
Is this going to work out?
my next concern is that I will be going to be out of town for 1 week, starting monday. I will be able to inoculate by thursday night/friday morning - soaking 24 hrs until wednesday noon, then PC for 90 mins 15 PSI and let cool for 10-12 hrs, then inoculation. so there are about 3 days left before I go, will that be ok? Im using a allready colonized liquid culture, so I guess I will have a head start? Is it realistic for the jars to be colonized around 30% by monday morning, or should I colonize them at a lower temperature (22C or so) to bridge this timespace of 1 week?
Edited by Pianoplayah (02/26/13 01:49 AM)
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shroomsisay
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Pianoplayah]
#17867414 - 02/26/13 03:24 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes get a PC if you can that is half the problem. I have done about 35 jars this week alone and I never have a lot of rye split and no problem with starch either.
Just drill a 1/4 inch hole in the lid and fill with polyfill. Cover with two layers of aluminum foil and PC. Do not open PC until it has been at least 6 hours. If jars feel room temp or close Heat the needle to red hot and push plunger until you get a drop on the tip of the needle. This will cool the needle. Push the needle through the polyfill into the jar and inoculate.
-------------------- I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. If your not living on the edge your taking up to much space!!
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shroomsisay
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Pianoplayah]
#17867430 - 02/26/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pianoplayah said:
my next concern is that I will be going to be out of town for 1 week, starting monday. I will be able to inoculate by thursday night/friday morning - soaking 24 hrs until wednesday noon, then PC for 90 mins 15 PSI and let cool for 10-12 hrs, then inoculation. so there are about 3 days left before I go, will that be ok? Im using a allready colonized liquid culture, so I guess I will have a head start? Is it realistic for the jars to be colonized around 30% by monday morning, or should I colonize them at a lower temperature (22C or so) to bridge this timespace of 1 week?
I am not sure what you are asking hear. But they will not be at 30% by Monday. Just get them inoculated it should take you less than 2 days with the soak included. Then stick them on a shelf at room temp and then the waiting game starts. I can give you no time frame on this. Its just wait and see.
-------------------- I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. If your not living on the edge your taking up to much space!!
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
Whippy said: I am just pointing out the fact that the first things I ever tried to sterilize were 4 quarts of grain. I steamed them 3 days in a row @ 212. Is it "recommended". No. I don't recommend it because what can be done in a Pressure cooker in 1/3 of the time or less.
Point of the matter, that Fractal sterilization may be not recommended, but if done correctly it accomplishes the means necessary for this hobby. It does work, and failure is from not adhering to specific schedules. It must be done every 24 hours....not later in the day.....
No it does not work. I suggest if you wish to claim it does that you 'fractional sterilize' 100 jars of grains and inoculate them. If over 50 of those jars produce mushrooms, you can say it has a 50% success/fail rate. I know for a fact however that you won't be able to get 50 out of 100 jars to fruit that way.
After preparation of the grains, you can steam at 100C for 8 hours and succeed. In fact, this is the method we use on our commercial mushroom farm to achieve 100% success. Not only that, but we're at 4000' elevation so water boils at less than 100C. The key is to keep the grains or supplemented sawdust at or near 100C for 8 hours.
Obviously a pressure cooker or sterilizer is best and quickest, but the above works. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Pianoplayah
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: shroomsisay]
#17867681 - 02/26/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomsisay said:
Quote:
Pianoplayah said: I am not sure what you are asking hear. But they will not be at 30% by Monday. Just get them inoculated it should take you less than 2 days with the soak included. Then stick them on a shelf at room temp and then the waiting game starts. I can give you no time frame on this. Its just wait and see.
But wouldnt my jars be colonized after returning in 1 1/2 weeks to a point, where it is hard to deal with, because the mycelium spread so far without being shaken leading to a very clumby and hard substrate? If I shake them once before leaving would that work out? Otherwise I saw a tek on crumbling the solid piece of mycelium into little pieces and mixing it under the pasteurized casing material. Thoguh I thought this would be quite risky without a flowhood or the like...
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HypnotoadCroaked
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#17873441 - 02/27/13 07:16 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I suggest if you wish to claim it does that you 'fractional sterilize' 100 jars of grains and inoculate them. If over 50 of those jars produce mushrooms, you can say it has a 50% success/fail rate. I know for a fact however that you won't be able to get 50 out of 100 jars to fruit that way.
Not personal, but What you pose is totally preposterous. I don't have the resources to even dispute you. Id have to get about 75 more quart jars and lids just to start. Maby someone has a 250 quart stock pot they could loan me. I am not running a mushroom farm. I would go out on a limb and think that most people with a pressure cooker here aren't from the farm either. Like others here, there is an interest in small-scale at home gourmet and medicinal mushrooms.
Is Tyndallization effective in mycology? NO. It is highly inefficient. No one bothers to research what is required for grain because it is non-nonsensical. Pressure cooker saves time and effort. There is not a single person in this branch of the hobby who would ever have a need to Fract-Sterilize 100 jars of anything. Nothing but common sense suggests that getting a PC at that point is a requirement. Does Fract-Sterilizing work? Yes, about as often as other methods work. It is entirely based on the individuals attention to detail. If we toss around quotes of statistics, based on what we think goes on around here, I would imagine about half of everything ever done in the name of mycology fails.
If pressure cooking is done correctly, it will succeed 100% of the time. If Fract-sterilization is done correctly, The same is to be expected.
FS does work, but is a total waste of time. It has been proven be effective at "sterilizing" grain in the past. It has been proven to be a total waste of time by me and others.
Using grain almost makes having a PC a requirement. IT is cheaper to order a 3lb bag of pre-sterilized grain than the cost of the time and gas/electric to Fract-sterilize in the home.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Obviously a pressure cooker or sterilizer is best and quickest RR
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
Whippy said: Does Fract-Sterilizing work? Yes, about as often as other methods work.
No it does not.
Other methods work 100% of the time. I lose less than one bag out of 1000 or I'd go out of business. You will learn a whole lot more around here by not arguing what works and does not work until you can do so from a standpoint of experience rather than what you read off the internet. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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HybridprX
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#17873494 - 02/27/13 07:49 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Whippy said: Does Fract-Sterilizing work? Yes, about as often as other methods work.
No it does not.
Other methods work 100% of the time. I lose less than one bag out of 1000 or I'd go out of business. You will learn a whole lot more around here by not arguing what works and does not work until you can do so from a standpoint of experience rather than what you read off the internet. RR
Without toiling you will never learn, like anything, be prepared for trial and error.
If you do have success with steaming for eight hours then all the power to you but I hope you're not paying for hydro. You'd be better off growing some shiitake off some steam sterilized pf cakes and selling them to your local restaurant then go buy a pressure cooker and sterilize them properly.
--------------------
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Pianoplayah
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Re: Did I sterilized my rye jars properly? [Re: Pianoplayah]
#17891979 - 03/02/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey folks, so I borrowed a PC, sterilized my rye jars and inoculated them 2 days ago. Now I do have another question: is it necessary to keep the tin foil cover during incubation? I saw videos/pictures where people did that, others did not. Im using polyfill lids and I covered the inoculation hole with a band aid; the incubation temperature is at 27C, I put a towel over the box for keeping them dark. Though the smelling of rye is intense inside of the box. Is this good or bad?
Right now Im not covering the lids with tinfoil because I thought the gas exchange might be important during incubation. Do I need to fan the box or drill holes, so the rye smell goes out? And how important is sterility in this phase of growing MM?
thanks for the help so far!
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