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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Gotlib]
    #17855735 - 02/23/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushroomninja said:
If we're talking about caps ittstarys to break down at 104f.




No it doesn't.  That's bullshit.

Quote:

Butt-Head said:
wikipedia says the melting point of psilocybin is between 220 and 228 deg C

I would not take it passed 200 but to play it safe not over 150 or 175 deg C




Irrelevant (boiling/degradation temps).

Your enemy at any sensible drying temperature is oxidation, not thermal decomposition.

1. Higher temperature = increased rate of reaction, decreased relative humidity (resulting in decreased drying time).
2. Increased surface area = increased rate of reaction, decreased drying time.

These are the factors you must balance to minimise loss of potency.  More airflow means faster drying with minimal effect on oxidation, so that's your best way to dry quicker. 

I find that drying on the grill of a fan heater set to low (60°C/140°F) is optimal, with any increase in rate of oxidation being offset by the fact that my shrooms/stones are dry within a few hours.  If you are decreasing your drying time from 2 days to 4 hours, your actives have to be oxidising 12 times as fast before you start to be worse off.

I would recommend oven-drying only if you have a fan-forced oven, as you're generally better off circulating cool/warm air than baking your shrooms with minimal air circulation, in my opinion.


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OfflineMushroomninja
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 171
Loc: Your mom's house
Last seen: 11 months, 8 days
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Fischer]
    #17855749 - 02/23/13 11:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, you called bullshit. Tell me the exact temp that it BEGINS to break down. I don't mean melt or completely burn up.


--------------------
I am said to be a revolutionist in my sympathies, by birth, by breeding, and by principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionist, because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolt.- Mark Twain


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Offlinethe_student
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Registered: 12/23/12
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #17855939 - 02/24/13 12:52 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

i really hate you right now


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada Flag
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: the_student]
    #17855954 - 02/24/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the_student said:
i really hate you right now




Ummm sorry?


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Offlinethe_student
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #17855981 - 02/24/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

i meant to quote the pic but nice job... pffff


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: the_student]
    #17856012 - 02/24/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the_student said:
i meant to quote the pic but nice job... pffff




Thanks, but that's nothing compared to what I'm planning for the next few months. I might do a growlog for it, in spite of my inability for consistent and coherent posting (I do love reading other people's growlogs however). Might have to lay off the liquor and get er done.


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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Mushroomninja]
    #17856032 - 02/24/13 01:18 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushroomninja said:
Ok, you called bullshit. Tell me the exact temp that it BEGINS to break down. I don't mean melt or completely burn up.




First of all, you're the one making the claim, so the burden of evidence is on you to make defensible claims, but I'll play ball.

"Break down" isn't a meaningful term.  I'll go ahead and assume you mean oxidise, as that's the way psilox most readily degrades.

I'm not about to spend the time researching the activation energy (and subsequently the required temperature) of the reaction, but it's safe to say it happens at room temperature and negligibly at 0°C.  Any temperature between that and its decomp temperature will only accelerate the oxidation reaction, and not to the same extent that it will speed the drying time and therefore decrease the length of time it's sitting there oxidising.

I'm not saying I have comprehensive answers, I'm saying that what you said is horseshit, and demonstrably so with easily available information and scientific laws.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Fischer]
    #17856082 - 02/24/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The actives in mushrooms don't break down until FAR past 300F.

Psilocybin & Psilocin Chemistry

Use Heat!


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OfflineMushroomninja
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Fischer]
    #17856874 - 02/24/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, you call bullshit, yet don't have a definitive answer. Just a longer version of whats already been said. Again, both of you window lickers are refusing to back up your statement of "bullshit" with an exact temp. You just keep answering a question that was never asked. I have read repeatedly in multiple source not to allow them to be exposed to temps over 40c (104f) because that is the point it BEGINS to deteriorate. Nobody asked at what point does it become completely worthless. Yes, i know oxidation is a big factor, but that is not was asked. Also, if you call bullshit the burden of proof is equally yours as well. In The Mushroom Cultivator , Stamets says he recomends temps of 110f or less. I double checked that as a reference last night, you can figure out the page # for yourself. If i have some extra time today i will post a few more references. To the op, i ran my dehydrator between 90-100f. Its enough heat to speed things up, but not so hot you BEGIN to needlessly lose the good stuff. If i was op and a couple of douche bags on the internet couldn't agree i would err on the side of caution and try to keep my temps lower. Good luck op!


--------------------
I am said to be a revolutionist in my sympathies, by birth, by breeding, and by principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionist, because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolt.- Mark Twain


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OfflineDanflynn86
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Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 74
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Mushroomninja]
    #17856967 - 02/24/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

My thread caused Internet fisticuffs.


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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Mushroomninja]
    #17860999 - 02/24/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushroomninja said:Nobody asked at what point does it become completely worthless. Yes, i know oxidation is a big factor,




Oxidation is the only factor.  If you have any references indicating other reactions that psilocybin/psilocin are likely to undergo when drying, I'm happy to hear about them.

Quote:

but that is not was asked.




Alright cockholster; to answer the question you asked, neither psilocybin nor psilocin will undergo thermal decomposition until temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius.  Happy?



Now how about asking intelligent questions like:

What is the reaction I actually need to worry about at practical temperatures? (Oxidation)

What is required for this reaction to take place and how can I eliminate it while I'm drying shrooms? (Oxygen, so from a practical standpoint you can't)

What accelerates this reaction and how can I eliminate it while I'm drying shrooms? (Heat, UV light and exposure time; the second is easy to eliminate while the first and third must be weighed against one another)

How can I accelerate evaporation without significantly accelerating oxidation of active compounds? (Increase airflow, which is easy, and decrease the absolute humidity of your drying airflow, which might be accomplished with an air-con or similar chill/reheat system)

If you want to find the optimal temperature for preservation of alkaloids, read these and start plotting functions to find the point at which increasing temperature increases rate of oxidation by a factor greater than the corresponding increase in rate of evaporation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity
http://www.cigrjournal.org/index.php/Ejounral/article/viewFile/1876/1422

After that, you might want to factor in convenience (ie that it might be worth losing 5% of your active alkaloids to oxidation if it means a substantial decrease in time taken to dry your mushrooms).

That's about as much spoonfeeding as I can stomach for one day.

Quote:

If i was op and a couple of douche bags on the internet couldn't agree i would err on the side of caution and try to keep my temps lower. Good luck op!




There's only one douchebag here, and it's the guy who thinks his guess is just as valid as anyone else's comments until they choose to exhaustively prove the basis for their comments, rather than just showing why your blanket statement (with no apparent factual basis besides something Stamets once said) is bullshit.


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OfflineMushroomninja
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Fischer]
    #17861934 - 02/25/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry if Stamets isn't knowledgeable enough for you. He only wrote the bible of mushroom growers, he probably doesn't know shit compared to you and wiki(written by people like you). So if your claim of "several hundred degrees celsius" before it breaks down is correct, then  we could set the dry mushrooms on fire, burn them off, and still trip nuts off the residue left behind. That would be cool. Even if you're 100% right, and this discussion/your brilliant insights spanwed a new and easier way to dose(above), you're still a huge fuckin douche bag. Even if i was dead wrong the way you jumped into the conversation wasn't cool, and i guarantee you wouldn't respond with such disrespect in person. I'd smash your face in, unless of course it appears that you have downs syndrom. It wouldn't be cool if i smashed a retarded kid.
I feel a ban coming my way. Lol


--------------------
I am said to be a revolutionist in my sympathies, by birth, by breeding, and by principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionist, because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolt.- Mark Twain


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OfflinePussyFart
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Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: Oven drying? [Re: Mushroomninja]
    #17863017 - 02/25/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushroomninja said:
Sorry if Stamets isn't knowledgeable enough for you. He only wrote the bible of mushroom growers, he probably doesn't know shit compared to you and wiki(written by people like you). So if your claim of "several hundred degrees celsius" before it breaks down is correct, then  we could set the dry mushrooms on fire, burn them off, and still trip nuts off the residue left behind.



Not really, last time I checked, fire burned hotter than 300F.

Psilocybin & Psilocin Chemistry

And last time I checked, that book was over 20 years old.


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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Mushroomninja]
    #17863026 - 02/25/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushroomninja said:
Sorry if Stamets isn't knowledgeable enough for you. He only wrote the bible of mushroom growers, he probably doesn't know shit compared to you and wiki(written by people like you).




Stamets' area of expertise is mycology.  Would I think of arguing something he said on that subject?  Not at all.  But until his
areas of expertise include physics and chemistry, I'm fine to give thinking for myself a shot when it comes to drying mushrooms efficiently without destroying psilox compounds.

Quote:

So if your claim of "several hundred degrees celsius" before it breaks down is correct, then  we could set the dry mushrooms on fire, burn them off, and still trip nuts off the residue left behind.




Yeah no; even a cigarette burns at >700°C

Quote:

That would be cool. Even if you're 100% right, and this discussion/your brilliant insights spanwed a new and easier way to dose(above), you're still a huge fuckin douche bag. Even if i was dead wrong the way you jumped into the conversation wasn't cool, and i guarantee you wouldn't respond with such disrespect in person.




I guarantee I would - if someone made an authoritative statement that was dead wrong, I would call them out on it because you have no business making it with such conviction.  All you had to do was chuck "I think" in front of it and you would have been fine.  Even acting like less of a snotty little cunt in the following posts would have done you a lot of favours.

Quote:

I'd smash your face in, unless of course it appears that you have downs syndrom. It wouldn't be cool if i smashed a retarded kid.
I feel a ban coming my way. Lol




Oh yeah, your RBSD is as bullshit as your value of 40°C


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InvisibleFred Teddy
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Registered: 07/18/11
Posts: 208
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Danflynn86]
    #17864365 - 02/25/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I love your "internet fisticuffs" line ...

As far as potency degradation goes, the faster it dries (evaporates - liquid to gas) the better. Moving air dries stuff out better than just heat alone. Try to dry your cloths in a dryer where the vent is plugged. Wont happen. Ever see an ice cube disappear in a frost free freezer? (sublimates - solid to gas) Not much heat in a freezer is there? Concentrate on moving some air over some silly magic line of how hot is hot. This degree or that degree is nonsense.

Peace
FT


--------------------
... its all about fun and games ... and no one has poked their eye out ... yet.

Peace.

Disclaimer: Fact is ... Its all fiction.


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Invisibleop2kal
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Registered: 08/31/12
Posts: 1,167
Re: Oven drying? [Re: Fred Teddy]
    #17864463 - 02/25/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I wonder if anyone has tried drying with dry ice-- like some (unfortunate)individuals do with budzz-- it dont actually touch the dry ice though.


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