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The cost of dissent
    #1785025 -

Not a word of this is my own...
---------------------------------

SHERMAN AUSTIN SENTENCED TO ONE YEAR IN FEDERAL PRISON

Sherman Austin, webmaster of RaisetheFist.com, was sentenced today, August 4, 2003, to one year in federal prison, with three years of probation. Judge Wilson shocked the courtroom when he went against the recommendation of not only the prosecution, but the FBI and the Justice Department, who had asked that Austin be sentenced to 4 months in prison, and 4 months in a half-way house, with 3 years of probation.

Austin's probation stipulates, among other things, that (1) he cannot possess or access a computer of any kind without prior approval of his probation officer, (2) if his probation officer gives permission, the equipment is subject to monitoring and is subject to search and seizure at any time, without notice, (3) he cannot alter any of the software or hardware on any computer he uses, (4) he must surrender his phone, DSL, electric, and satellite bills, (5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.), and (6) he must pay over $2,000 in fines and restitution. Austin must surrender himself to the Federal Bureau of Prisons by September 3, 2003.

To contact sherman, email keepfistraised@yahoo.com

FROM SHERMAN AUSTIN:

On Jan 24, 2002, my home was surrounded and raided by approximately 25 heavily armed FBI and Secret Service agents in one of the governments first attempts to exercise the new US Patriot Act. I was interrogated for several hours while they ransacked my room and they seized a network of computers which I used to run my web site raisethefist.com. They also seized protest signs, and political literature. Their excuse was a protest guide (which I didn't author) that was posted to my site which a small portion contained information on explosives. The FBI had been monitoring the site long before this was ever posted, and long before Sept 11. The "explosives information" on my site (again which I didn't author) doesn't compare to what you an find on any other web sites such as howthingswork.com, Loompanics.com, Bombshock.com, Totse.com, Amazon.com, or the many neo nazi web sites which cover everything from assassinations, explosives, fraud and firearms. It's obvious a web surfer interested in making a bomb or taking part in other extra-illegal activities would not have to rely on Raisethefist.com. So how could the "bomb making information" on raisethefist.com be a concern to authorities? It wasn't a concern, it was simply used an excuse to exercise the new Patriot Act and take down the site. And that's what they did when federal agents spent 5-6 hours interrogating me while they disassembled each computer one by one , mirrored each hard drive, then loaded everything into a big white truck. During this whole process I was told I wasn't going to be arrested, and that I could even leave if I wanted to. Once the agents finished packing everything up, Special Agent John I. Pi, who was conducting the investigation and raid said that I had crossed a line, and as long as I got back on the other side of that line I'd be okay.

A week later despite what happened I still continued with my plans to attend the demonstration against the World Economic Forum in NY. As I was waiting for the march to begin, a swarm of NYPD officers rushed straight at me and scooped up about 26 people, one of which was me. We sat on a bus for 7 hours before being taken to Brooklyn Navy Yard Jail. I was there for about 30 hours before I was taken out of my cell and put into a backroom in handcuffs and interrogated once again by the FBI and Secret Service for several hours. They asked me questions such as if I was a terrorist or involved in any terrorist organizations. During the interrogation I noticed more and more agents walking through the room. I was told I wouldn't leave custody unless they searched my car. I said I had nothing to hide and simply wanted to go home. Stressed and aggravated, I signed over my keys. A few minutes later I was driven to the court and released. As I was waiting for someone to pick me up, about 5 FBI agents entered the court and said I was arrested for "distribution of information related to explosives over the internet". One of the agents grabbed my neck and told me to shut the fuck up while I tried to tell one of the legal observers I was being arrested. I was hurried out of the court house into a black SUV where I was driven to a federal building. I was then taken to lower Manhattan MCC maximum security 24 hour lockdown federal jail facility. At my bail hearing the FBI called me a "man on a mission" and said I drove 3,000 miles to carry out my alleged "plot". The judge said I was a "threat to the community" and denied me bail, and I was to be extradited back to California to face my charges. After 11 days I was shackled and taken to an airforce base where federal inmates are boarded onto planes surrounded by guards with M16's and shot guns, like prisoners of war, and flown to a federal jail "hub" in Oklahoma. Once I got there, I learned the next day that the prosecutors decided not to file an indictment. I was released after spending 13 days in custody. When I got back to Los Angeles I put raisethefist.com back up almost immediately. I continued my political organizing within the community, as well as my work with Raise the Fist which developed into a Direct Action Network with chapters setup around the world. 6 months later prosecutors contacted my lawyer and said they found nothing to prosecute me for on my computers, but didn't want to "let me off the hook". They offered me a pre-indictment binding plea agreement which was initially 1 month in jail, and 5 months in a "community corrections facility". I rejected the plea at first, wanting to go to trial until we discovered the case was eligible for a terrorism enhancement, which could have added 20 years to my sentence.

I therefore decided to enter a plea. I played months of legal limbo until I finally expected to get sentenced to 4 months in jail and 4 months in a community corrections facility based on the final pre-sentencing report written by the USPO. The judge rejected the 4 months saying what kind of an example would it set for "future revolutionaries" wanting to act in the same manner. He stated he wanted to give me at least 8-10 months but first wanted the opinion of the Justice Department and the Director of the FBI in Washington, DC (Robert Muller). My sentencing was rescheduled several times until August 4th. I was convicted for felony; distribution of information related to explosives with intent, and sentenced to 1 year in federal prison with 3 years supervised release.

Distribution of information related to explosives is not illegal.. What's illegal is the INTENT part. They have to prove you have intent to use the information to cause further crime of violence .. and how do they prove intent? I think Bush made it clear when he said "you're either with me or against me".

Remember, fascism and a police state doesn't come all at once, it comes piece by piece. How far will we allow it go until we are all locked up in concentration camps.

If we don't take matters into our own hands and do something about this now, then we are already prisoners of war.

Raisethefist.com is not shutting down, and the RTF Direct Action Network will continue to grow and remain active. A 1 year sentence is not the end of this. It's just the begining.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1785039 -

Question: Is the United States a police state?

Answer: Yes.

Thanks for posting that.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1785076 -

5 POINT PLATFORM
1. We want freedom. We want self-organized communities in which the land, produce, and machinery of production will be owned by the community, and the power of the political and class state abolished. We support the initiative for revolutionary unionizing. Workers should control the means of production to insure equal distribution within the community.

2. We want direct democracy, the right of every individual to participate in the organization of their own community and their own lives.

3. We are dedicated to revolutionary working class struggle against the system of white supremacy, capitalism, sexism, state, and any other forms of social or political oppression. A revolutionary initiative is defined by a course of direct action, meaning we believe taking matters into our own hands is the only way to effectively achieve social change rather than relying on a system that is repeatedly failing us.

4. We seek to rid our planet from the exploitation and degradation of our natural environment. We want a safe and clean ecological environment for all living things to grow in.

5. We want self-defense. We cannot rely on the system to protect us from it's own brutality, racism, murder and repression of our communities. We must rely on our communities to defend themselves by any means necessary at any given time.

(From the RTF Website)

Yah. Sounds like a horrible threat to America. Jeezuz. Might be a horrible threat to Amerika, but I wish to hell we had more people out there like this.

Scared YET?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1785096 -

He was incredibly stupid to settle for a plea agreement when he did nothing wrong.  Im sure american justice would have done the right thing....he just had to be honest. :smirk:

Still thats pretty crazy!  i wonder how many cases like this we don't hear about....actually nevermind....id rather not know. :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785104 -

Azmodeus said:
He was incredibly stupid to settle for a plea agreement when he did nothing wrong.  Im sure american justice would have done the right thing....he just had to be honest. :smirk:



LMAO :smile:  Ok - now THAT's the funniest thing I've heard all day! :grin: 


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1785205 -

So the guy is in jail. Who gives a shit?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1785206 -

Alrighty then. This guy deserves to be in jail. He should have gotten a longer term. According to his detention hearing two molatov cocktails were found at his house. The website had instuctions on how to attack police, and plans for building all sort of bombs, along with ways of not getting caught if your bomb doesn't go off. This guy sounds like a McVeigh starter kit, and I personally feel safer with him off the street.

http://cryptome2.org/usa-v-sma-dht.htm

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1785533 -

Shatka you missing the point...HE DIDN'T WRITE THE INSTRUCTIONS!!!!!

/sarcasm


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785550 -

Yeah, I guess that makes it OK. To the rest of you that think this guy is some kind of hero, you need to get a clue. Voicing your dissent legally is fine and I would even encourage it. When you plot to cause destruction or harm people you cross the line, and deserve to be in jail. This guy got what he deserved.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1785568 -

Agreed.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: superpimp]
    #1785827 -

Of course when they storm into your house without warning, probably without a warrant....and then say you can leave if you want, they can "find" anything they wish to.

Not saying they did, but look at your "he got what he deserved" attitude...this emotion comes from 9/11 and its exploitation....it keeps americans from questioning events like this..., and its only a small matter before this could be done to anyone....i mean look how he shit his pants and went for teh plea after they threatened "terrorist charges".



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785845 -

Charles Manson never personally killed anybody. The only crimes he ever committed were "speech crimes".

He said "Go kill these people."


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785866 -

I don't host a website where I tell people how to blow up other people and property in order to overthrow the government, so I'm not too worried about being raided and charged with terrorism.

If I did host such a site, I would expect to be watched and possibly charged with crimes. That's sort of the way things work. Why is that so hard to understand?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785869 -

Azmodeus said:
Of course when they storm into your house without warning, probably without a warrant....and then say you can leave if you want, they can "find" anything they wish to.

Not saying they did, but look at your "he got what he deserved" attitude...this emotion comes from 9/11 and its exploitation....it keeps americans from questioning events like this..., and its only a small matter before this could be done to anyone....i mean look how he shit his pants and went for teh plea after they threatened "terrorist charges".




Did you even read the link I posted? If not quit talking out of your ass like you know what you are talking about. They had a search warrant. They found bombs and bomb making materials in his house. He posted crap on his website about how to injure or kill other people and get away with it. It has nothing to do with 9/11. He was a domestic terrorist in waiting, and he is being punished for it. He knew he was guilty so he got his little plea bargain. I aplaud the judge for making an example out of him. The guy is a nutjob that needs to be locked up. Maybe his young dumb ass will figure out the right way to protest while he is getting pounded in the ass in prison. This jerk off said he wanted to bomb the Olympics on his website.

Bottom line...

He is a jackass and got what he deserved.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1785907 -

shakta said:
Yeah, I guess that makes it OK. To the rest of you that think this guy is some kind of hero, you need to get a clue. Voicing your dissent legally is fine and I would even encourage it. When you plot to cause destruction or harm people you cross the line, and deserve to be in jail. This guy got what he deserved.


So what about that whole American Revolution thing then? I don't recall that whole episode "voicing dissent legally" either. Your country (I'm assuming you're American) was made by people who violently overthrew their government. As far as I can see, this guy was providing information on how to do the same thing, but the government threw him in jail. How does your well armed militia respond to a tyrannical government if they are arrested for even mentioning revolution?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1785917 -

they found bombs at his place?

if they found bombs at his place, i don't see how there is any debate here about this guy's intentions or guilt.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1785926 -

Well if that was why he was arrested then I would agree with you. Since it isn't the reason he was arrested you don't have an argument really. Do you think it is hard to have a revolution when the majority has no interest in one? I do. If people want change they have to get involved. He was doing that, but he took it to far. Building bombs and wanting to kill people is not how you get change, it is how you end up in jail. Personally if I was around and someone was trying to get a cop by themselves to do him harm I would help the cop beat them down.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1785930 -

mushmaster said:
they found bombs at his place?

if they found bombs at his place, i don't see how there is any debate here about this guy's intentions or guilt.


Yep. Molotov (sp?) cocktails in various forms. There was also some stuff about an empty gas can, electrical wire, and fertilizer found in his car, but I have not seen how true that was.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1785992 -

According to this CNN report:

Quote:
Austin, 20, pleaded guilty in February to distributing information related to explosives.


It doesn't seem to say anything about him being charged with actually posessing explosives, or that he intended to do anything with the two Molotov cocktails that your links says they found.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1785999 -

I'm sure he had no bad intentions with the Molotov cocktails. They were probably just party favors.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: superpimp]
    #1786009 -

Maybe he was going to give them to his mom for her birthday or something. Anyway, so he pled guilty to something illegal, and he should be some kind of martyr?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786058 -

I didn't say anything like that, nobody's mentioning the word martyr but you. It doesn't matter why he had them if they can't prove intent, any more than I could be charged with intent to murder for just owning a firearm.

Do you think that the American Revolution should have happened? This guy was jailed for providing information on overthrowing governments, the revolutionaries actually did (violently) overthrow their government. You said that wanting to kill people is "not how to get change", so how do you feel about the people responsible for your current 'freedom'?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1786192 -

Come on now I know you are smarter than this. First of all posessing a bomb is illegal, a firearm is not. Secondly, the original post was written in a way to paint this guy as some kind of poor mistreated protestor, that I am sure all of you would have gobbled up had I not posted some facts about the case. The facts are he is a criminal that had intentions to do harm at some point, and encouraged others to do the same. What he did was illegal, he plead guilty to it, and is going to jail for a year. The article's tone would make you think the government cut his balls off and hung him for some petty BS.

The American Revolution was against a monarchy that was trying to control the colonies from half way around the world. The colonists decided they did not want to pay taxes and be controlled by a monarchy that only wanted to use them to acquire mass quantities of their cash. Comparing them to this fucktard is ridiculous. Of course I am glad it happened. You can put quotes around freedom all you want, but we have much more now than we did then. We also live in a republic that is run by publicly elected officials. We are not a colony of some foreign power. We have laws and if you break them and get caught you have to suffer the consequences. If at some point the majorit of the people become disatisfied with the current form of government we have, there may be another revolution. Until that happens, people that build bombs, distribute illegal information, and plot to kill people will be put in jail when the are caught.

What part of this do you have a problem with, or are you just trying to point out that this guy represents the majority of the population and revolution is around the corner?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: ]
    #1786222 -

mushmaster said:
they found bombs at his place?

if they found bombs at his place, i don't see how there is any debate here about this guy's intentions or guilt.


Tell me, then...What do you think of the whole Waco incident?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1786236 -

You make an excellent point Edame.  :thumbup: 


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1786244 -

Do you think an overthrow of the government is in order or justified? Do you think it should be legal to tell people how to kill their fellow citizens? Just curious.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786267 -

Do you think it should be legal to own weapons that were designed to kill fellow citizens?

I do believe it should be legal to tell people how I don't think it should be legal to tell them to do it

Do you think it should be legal to tell people how to grow shrooms? Because sites like this are likely to be next on the adgenda.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786277 -

I don't see him being charged or convicted of posession of any bombs (and I'd say it's debatable whether a molotov cocktail could be truly considered a bomb). It says he had two molotov cocktails, but his conviction was not for having them, it was for distributing information. Without proof that he intended to use them for malicious purposes, they could be part of a science experiment for all we know.

This very website also provides and links to information on how to cultivate illegal plants/drugs, should we all be rounded up and arrested too (after all, according to the US government, we're helping fund terrorism)?

I'm sure that the British didn't think they were a bad government either, until they were overthrown. Just because you seem think that the government is ok, doesn't mean that others do. Is killing people only justified if enough people get together to do it?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1786299 -

Baby_Hitler said:
Do you think it should be legal to own weapons that were designed to kill fellow citizens?
Quote:
If the weapon has no other purpose? Maybe...

Quote:
I do believe it should be legal to tell people how I don't think it should be legal to tell them to do it

Do you think it should be legal to tell people how to grow shrooms? Because sites like this are likely to be next on the adgenda.


Whether I agree with the laws or not does not matter as far as this topic goes. He broke the law, and is in jail for it. That is how it works. Just for the record, I don't think bomb making techniques should necessarily be illegal, inciting others to use them should definately. As far as growing shrooms goes, I don't think they should be illegal either of course. I think marijuana should be legal as well. The harder drugs I have some issues with, but I do believe that if someone wants to kill themselves with coke they should probably be allowed to. The reduced crime and corruption legalization would provide would be worth it. How many people don't use drugs because they are illegal anyway?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786303 -

>>>If the weapon has no other purpose? Maybe...<<<


A molotov coctail has as much use or purpose as an assault rifle.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1786324 -

Edame said:
I don't see him being charged or convicted of posession of any bombs (and I'd say it's debatable whether a molotov cocktail could be truly considered a bomb). It says he had two molotov cocktails, but his conviction was not for having them, it was for distributing information. Without proof that he intended to use them for malicious purposes, they could be part of a science experiment for all we know.[quote/]

His intentions for them don't matter. They are illegal and should be.

Quote:
This very website also provides and links to information on how to cultivate illegal plants/drugs, should we all be rounded up and arrested too (after all, according to the US government, we're helping fund terrorism)?


First growing and eating mushrooms is a far cry from building explosive devices or teaching people how to. As I stated in my reply to BH, I don't think distributing the information should be illegal, but it is, and he got caught. Lastly, the terrorist bit is a poor attempt. We all know that growing your own shrooms and eating them or giving them away does not support terrorism. Buying heroine from Afghanistan that is sold by terrorists certainly does. You know this, yet you try to strengthen your argument by throwing this in for some reason.

Quote:
I'm sure that the British didn't think they were a bad government either, until they were overthrown. Just because you seem think that the government is ok, doesn't mean that others do. Is killing people only justified if enough people get together to do it?


Well the King was never really overthrown. His grasp on the colonies was. The overwhelming majority of the population has no desire for revolution. A few nutcases that do does not make it right, no matter how you try to spin it. Revolution is justified if enough people find it necessary, sure.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786340 -

Like when the south rebelled from the U.S.?


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1786372 -

Quote:
I do believe it should be legal to tell people how I don't think it should be legal to tell them to do it



Sounds good to me.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1786379 -

Baby_Hitler said:
Like when the south rebelled from the U.S.?


Yep. The majority of the Soutern democrats were not happy with the northerners telling them what to do. They were wrong, but they tried. The same thing could and very well may happen again.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786380 -

His intentions for them don't matter. They are illegal and should be.

As I said before, I can't see any report where he was charged or convicted for possessing them. Last time I checked, the justice system was supposed to uphold the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty, so unless they could prove that he intended to harm people then I feel my point stands. As far as I can tell he's been jailed for distributing information.

First growing and eating mushrooms is a far cry from building explosive devices or teaching people how to.

I doubt that Mr. Ashcroft and his minions would agree with you.

As I stated in my reply to BH, I don't think distributing the information should be illegal, but it is, and he got caught.

If that is the case then we could all be in trouble.

Lastly, the terrorist bit is a poor attempt. We all know that growing your own shrooms and eating them or giving them away does not support terrorism. Buying heroine from Afghanistan that is sold by terrorists certainly does. You know this, yet you try to strengthen your argument by throwing this in for some reason.

Sure, we might 'know' that we're not supporting terrorism, but do Bush and Ashcroft? I notice that you didn't mention weed. Wasn't there a government advertising campaign about this?
I added that point to highlight that if the people running the US, and making and enforcing the laws all believe that we're supporting terrorism by using/buying drugs, then how long before people here start getting thrown in jail because of what they post?

Why should someone be thrown in jail for exercising their right to freedom of speech?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1786440 -

This guy should not be in jail.

Information and materials are not the same as blowing something up.

Since when is it OK to jail someone for distributing perfectly legal information. Does the first amendment mean nothing?

Should people be arrested for what they MIGHT do?

Absolutely not.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1786529 -

I swear to god I hate to agree with Luvdem, but in this case, he's right on the money.

And if any of y'all think that the fact that "growing and eating mushrooms is a far cry from building explosive devices or teaching people how to." (with which I agree wholeheartedly - in principle) will mean anything to the PTBs (Powers that Be, for you non-Buffy fans), then you got another think coming.

This war on personal freedoms has nothing to do with reality. It is entirely based on the preconceptions and ideals of a small number of people - a group that could give a shit that mushrooms are just fungi, and information is just information.

And if you don't think it could happen to you...

There was a meeting in Pittsburgh last week at a small building just outside the campus of the University of Pittsburgh. The meeting was setup to get together a group of people who opposed the Patriot Act and who were there to volunteer to become activists in that arena. At the beginning of the meeting, the organizers began with the following announcement:

"We have just been contacted by the Office of Homeland Security. They have notified us that anyone attending this meeting is being placed on a precautionary list as a prospective US dissident. This means "Terrorist". We have been told that any information, including names, phone numbers, email addresses and the like can be subpoenad at any time, without warning by the Office of Homeland Security or any of it's agencies."

Half of the people in the meeting left on the spot.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1786566 -

shakta said:
Do you think an overthrow of the government is in order or justified? Do you think it should be legal to tell people how to kill their fellow citizens? Just curious.

My first thought is "no", but Edame made a great point - that's exactly how America was founded!


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1787264 -

shakta said:
Yep. The majority of the Soutern democrats were not happy with the northerners telling them what to do. They were wrong, but they tried. The same thing could and very well may happen again.


Why were the wrong? Because they lost? And don't dare give me any thing about slavery, because slavery had nothing to do with the far, if slavery hadn't been so crucial to the souths economy is would not have been messed with. Lincoln might have been a good guy but he wansn't a crusading civil rights president, he abolished slavery perhaps out of progressive humanitarianism, but it was mostly to punish the south for trying to break away.


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We should really love each other, in peace and harmony. Instead we're fussing and fighting, like we ain't supposed to be.-Bob Marley
The people, the still sleeping mass which it was necessary to mobilize and its vanguard, the guerrillas.
-Che

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1787566 -

Edame writes:

As I said before, I can't see any report where he was charged or convicted for possessing them. Last time I checked, the justice system was supposed to uphold the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty, so unless they could prove that he intended to harm people then I feel my point stands.

You (and others) are missing the point. The guy copped a plea. That was his decision.

The vast majority of cases in the US are settled through plea-bargaining. The justice system simply does not have the capacity for every case to go to trial. He decided to plead guilty to the lesser offense rather than risk a conviction on the more serious offense.

Besides, how do we know what statements in his story are accurate and which are self-serving? A lot of them could be sheer bullshit. It's not as if he were under oath when he wrote them. I have been to Raisethefist.com in the past. The guy has a serious hate-on for the American government. I don't trust him to give a one hundred per cent accurate account of events -- it would be contrary to his personal agenda.

The thing in his account that (if true) is unfortunate is how the judge overrode the agreed-upon terms of the deal he had negotiated with the prosecution. Normally, the judge will accept the recommendation of the district attorney in a plea bargain case, but he is not obligated to do so. It is not unheard of for a judge (particularly one running for re-election) to hand out harsher sentences than are recommended. Judges have the right to do so. Sentencing is the responsibility of the judge, not the district attorney.

Still, it must have come as a shock. I can understand his disappointment in the severity of the sentence.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1788100 -

He should have risked the worse charge...i bet he would have gotten off scott free. Still his distibuting of information probably isn't any worse than the information required to grow mushrooms...in the governments eyes.. and is just another terrorist tool. They already have the ability apparently, they just haven't been practising much yet. I suspect over the next few years we'll see more cases like this, but for a variety of terrorist acts


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1788207 -

Azmodeus writes:

He should have risked the worse charge...i bet he would have gotten off scott free.

He probably would have, if the information he gives is accurate and he had a halfway decent lawyer.

Still his distibuting of information probably isn't any worse than the information required to grow mushrooms...in the governments eyes.. and is just another terrorist tool.

You can't be serious. There is no way in the world the government looks upon info on how to cultivate weed or cactus or shrooms in the same light as they regard info on bomb-making. Especially when that info is coupled with regular exhortations to "smash the state", and especially when the guy hosting that info on his site is found to possess actual bomb-making components. Get real.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1788221 -

I didn't mean that its the same now, but rather has the potential to be. I mean don't bring intellegence into this topic when the american government has said on commercials "drug dealers support terrorism". Well so does bomb making, and my point was if he gets all this hassle for instructions he didn't write its a small leap to arrest people for instructions on how to make/ grow illicit substances which in the governments eyes, supports terrorism. They just haven't done it.....yet.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1788240 -

You (and others) are missing the point. The guy copped a plea. That was his decision.

I know he did, but that wasn't the point I was making. As luv pointed out, this looks to be a violation of his right to freedom of speech. I don't think he should have been arrested in the first place.

The vast majority of cases in the US are settled through plea-bargaining. The justice system simply does not have the capacity for every case to go to trial. He decided to plead guilty to the lesser offense rather than risk a conviction on the more serious offense.

I was reading up on this a bit at work today after reading about a similar case (which I may post about later). From what I've read, I would probably agree with you that a large amount of cases appear to be settled that way. Do you agree with that though? I think it seems pretty despicable to bully people into plea bargaining by effectivley threatening them with a much harsher sentence, just so they can secure a conviction. Many people can't afford court and lawyer fees, so even if they are actually innocent, how can they take the risk? Could you trust an overworked public defender with a hundred cases just like yours to defend you against a 20 year stretch, versus say a 3 year one if you cop a plea?


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788276 -

Not that you asked me Edame but, this type of speech falls under the same thing as yelling fire in a packed movie theatre. The laws say it is illegal, not that I necessarily agree with that.

As far as plea bargains go, I don't like them. I can see the merits of them though. They do save money on court costs and things like that I guess. I just don't like the idea of a killer getting off lite because a couple of lawyers made a deal.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1788387 -

As far as plea bargains go, I don't like them. I can see the merits of them though. They do save money on court costs and things like that I guess.

What do you consider more important? Saving money, or trying to ensure that innocent people aren't intimidated into accepting jail time?
We're talking about the same government that squanders millions on projects like terrorist futures markets and blantantly false anti-drug propaganda.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788394 -

Good point...there are much more efficient ways to 'save' money....like not wasting it for one.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788433 -

I just said that I did not like them. I just understand why they exist. Anyone that feels pressured to take a deal that is innocent is a nimrod. If they are offering you a sweet deal, it is probably because they can't prove the original charges, or the original crime is not serious enough to them to invest the resources it would take to get a conviction on the original charge. Then you also have the whole ratting someone else out to help yourself thing.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1788490 -

What if you can't afford a decent lawyer to defend yourself? I've always had the impression that public defencers are extremely overworked and underpaid. Regardless of whether you think they have a case or not, the government has almost unlimited funds with which to prosecute you. Could you afford to risk a long stretch of jail time on some fresh out of law school public defender with hundreds of other cases to deal with?

You can see the same kind of thing with civil cases involving the RIAA. Most students can't afford the crippling legal fees to fight the RIAA's legion of lawyers, so they are forced to settle even if they know they are innocent.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788553 -

I am not saying the system is perfect by any means, but it works pretty well the majority of the time. On the college kids and the RIAA, has there been a single case where that happened at all?

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: shakta]
    #1788611 -

Yes, I posted on it a while back. A student was forced to pay the RIAA his life savings ($12,000) so that they wouldn't ruin his life in court. He never even had any infringing files either, all he did was make a search engine for his University's network. The RIAA claimed he'd created a 'mini-napster' (when mini-google would be more appropriate).

From what I've read, I'd be more inclined to think that your justice system is utterly fucked up (war on drugs, patriot act,IP etc...). The US has the highest prison population in the world.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788652 -

True. Like I said, it is not perfect. The sytem does uphold the laws the vast majority of the time. It is not the judicial systems fault there are stupid laws on the books.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1788803 -

pinksharkmark said:
Azmodeus writes:
Still his distibuting of information probably isn't any worse than the information required to grow mushrooms...in the governments eyes.. and is just another terrorist tool.

You can't be serious. There is no way in the world the government looks upon info on how to cultivate weed or cactus or shrooms in the same light as they regard info on bomb-making. Especially when that info is coupled with regular exhortations to "smash the state", and especially when the guy hosting that info on his site is found to possess actual bomb-making components. Get real.

"No way in the world"? "Get real"? People have received harsher penalties for possessing weed than this guy got for posessing actual bomb-making equipment, haven't they? And this guy was supposed to be the "example".


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Edame]
    #1788856 -

Edame writes:

I know he did, but that wasn't the point I was making. As luv pointed out, this looks to be a violation of his right to freedom of speech. I don't think he should have been arrested in the first place.

He could have insisted on a trial rather than copping a plea if he really believed he had violated no law. That is his right as an American, and no one cany deny him the right to a trial. The point is that as soon as he pleads guilty, that's it that's all.

From what I've read, I would probably agree with you that a large amount of cases appear to be settled that way. Do you agree with that though?

The volume of crime in some cities makes it impossible to handle things any other way.

I think it seems pretty despicable to bully people into plea bargaining by effectivley threatening them with a much harsher sentence, just so they can secure a conviction.

The thing is, though, plea bargains are bargained down. If they weren't, no one would take them. Burglaries end up as "trespass", attempted murder ends up as "assault", rape ends up as "sexual harassment", etc. What is despicable is that the makefactors get away with so much.

The fact of the matter is that virtually everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty. The truly innocent almost always insist on going to trial.

Many people can't afford court and lawyer fees, so even if they are actually innocent, how can they take the risk? Could you trust an overworked public defender with a hundred cases just like yours to defend you against a 20 year stretch, versus say a 3 year one if you cop a plea?

If I were accused of a crime I didn't commit, I wouldn't cop a plea, even if it meant I had to defend myself. If I couldn't afford a decent lawyer and was stuck with a rookie public defender, I'd get him to file for delay after delay after delay while I read up all the case law I could get my hands on. If the guy looked like he was blowing it, I'd stand up and tell the judge to either let me defend myself or to let me fire the lawyer and get a new one.

People have used all these tactics in the past. The US legal system allows it.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1788867 -

Cornholio writes:

People have received harsher penalties for possessing weed than this guy got for posessing actual bomb-making equipment, haven't they?

He didn't receive the sentence he did for possessing bomb-making equipment. He copped a plea to a different offence.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1788914 -

pinksharkmark said:
Cornholio writes:

People have received harsher penalties for possessing weed than this guy got for posessing actual bomb-making equipment, haven't they?

He didn't receive the sentence he did for possessing bomb-making equipment. He copped a plea to a different offence.

That seems to prove the point all the better. The Government didn't even bother charging the guy for having bomb-making equipment. And you said they take this much more seriously than drugs?


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1790157 -

When I was 16, I used to webmaster a site very similar to raisethefist.com, and I also used to build explosives. I was very vocal about my hatred of the government and my intentions to do something about it.

I still stand by those beliefs, but I'd like to point out that I no longer build bombs or have any terroist intentions.

If, however, I had been put in jail back when I had the website, you can bet your ass I would've settled the score when I got out.

I am not afraid of fascism because it always fucks itself. When they put people in jail for no reason, they are merely sealing the fate of their own demise.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1795163 -

Pinksharkfark writes: The fact of the matter is that virtually everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty. The truly innocent almost always insist on going to trial.

oh is that right? Nigga please. Prove it.

He didn't receive the sentence he did for possessing bomb-making equipment. He copped a plea to a different offence.


If serving twenty-years was a possbile trial outcome and I had a choice between going through such a trial with such an outcome and I was offered a choice to accept a plea bargain (even though it was bullshit) so that I could only serve a month or so, I'd take the plea bargain. Why? When you're dealing massive chunks of you life (20 years), anyone who is sane wouldnt take the risk - they'd simply suck it up and serve the few months. Juries and judges are not always rational and fair (and often they have political agendas like the judge in this particular case). I'd rather have some measure of control over the destiny of my life than hand it out to a bunch of patriot assholes.

Get real.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: iglou]
    #1795433 -

iglou writes:

oh is that right? Nigga please. Prove it.

Do you know any public defenders? Or defense attorneys? I suggest you talk with them.

I didn't say everyone who cops a plea is guilty, or that everyone who is truly innocent will refuse to plea bargain. But in the vast majority of cases, those statements hold true.

If serving twenty-years was a possbile trial outcome and I had a choice between going through such a trial with such an outcome and I was offered a choice to accept a plea bargain (even though it was bullshit) so that I could only serve a month or so, I'd take the plea bargain.

Then I guess you'd better hope you never get falsely charged with committing a crime which carries a twenty year sentence.

When you're dealing massive chunks of you life (20 years), anyone who is sane wouldnt take the risk - they'd simply suck it up and serve the few months.

Anyone who is sane wouldn't take the risk? So all those falsely accused of a crime are insane for insisting on a trial to clear their names? Uh-huh.

I'd rather have some measure of control over the destiny of my life than hand it out to a bunch of patriot assholes.

Translation -- "I'd rather cave and plead guilty to something I didn't do and carry a criminal record for the rest of my life because I have such a sour view of my fellow man that I would never trust a group of twelve people to recognize my innocence."

Cynicism is such a useful outlook on life.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1795451 -

Cornholio writes:

The Government didn't even bother charging the guy for having bomb-making equipment.

There could be any number of reasons why such charges weren't brought. Perhaps there was a typo on the search warrant, making the evidence they seized subject to being rejected by a judge having a bad hair day. Perhaps some yutz in the evidence warehouse of the local police department lost the tag for the evidence (this happened to some friends of mine who were busted in the Seventies, by the way. They walked.) or one of the investigating officers had a heart attack and is in hospital unable to testify....

There are an astonishing number of procedural hoops which must be jumped through in order to persuade a prosecutor he won't be left holding his dick in his hand in open court when it comes time to actually try the case. Cases are routinely plea-bargained or even dismissed where everyone involved knows the defendant is stone guilty.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1795573 -

Quote:
Cynicism is such a useful outlook on life.



vvvv You vvvv



You have a little too much faith in the American injustice system.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1795747 -

I didn't say everyone who cops a plea is guilty, or that everyone who is truly innocent will refuse to plea bargain. But in the vast majority of cases, those statements hold true.

Dont tell me to go seek the answer. You argued that, "virtually everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty." Now have some balls and prove it.

"I'd rather cave and plead guilty to something I didn't do and carry a criminal record for the rest of my life because I have such a sour view of my fellow man that I would never trust a group of twelve people to recognize my innocence."

Judges are political; Jurors want the trial to end quick so they can go home; Competent lawyers are practically inaccessible to those without sufficient funding; Patriot Act is in full effect; And many laws are give the prosecutors the upperhand. Defendants are fucked.

I say giving into a plea bargain, particulary in the case of Sherman/RTF, is often the safest path to take. Some people cannot risk losing 20 years and have to bite the bullet.

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: iglou]
    #1795901 -

Back in my military days, I was at a bar with a few friends on an Air Force base, and one my friends got in a fight. He seriously kicked the shit out of another guy, then fled the scene. The cops showed up and another friend tried to calm things down with the cops, but refused to give them the guy's name. So they arrested him. I was really confused about this, becasue I ddin't know you could be arrested for not talking. So I asked the cops why they were arresting my friend. They told me to shut up. I tried to explain to them that the guy didn't do anything, so they arrested me too.

No big deal I thought. Until I found out they accused me of assualt, and resisting arrest, both of which blew my mind because they were so blatantly false. My lawyer told me to plead guilty and accept a punishment that included a $500 fine, rather than risk a much larger punishment. I thought that was complete bullshit, but I took my lawyer's advice anyway. I still regret that to this day, but it's one example showing iglou is right.


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1796197 -

Cornholio writes:

Until I found out they accused me of assualt, and resisting arrest, both of which blew my mind because they were so blatantly false. My lawyer told me to plead guilty and accept a punishment that included a $500 fine, rather than risk a much larger punishment. I thought that was complete bullshit, but I took my lawyer's advice anyway. I still regret that to this day, but it's one example showing iglou is right.

It shows no such thing. All it shows is that your lawyer was an ass. Your instincts were correct. If you had decided to fight it, odds are a judge would have ripped a huge strip off the prosecutor's ass for daring to waste his time with such shit. If the judge didn't dismiss it then and there, I can guarantee you no district attorney with more intelligence than an electric toaster would have taken it to court.

The sad fact is that many, MANY defense attorneys will do anything they can to avoid going to court. They make their money through plea-bargaining. They get paid either way.

I still regret that to this day, but it's one example showing iglou is right.

Not at all. It shows that *I* was right.

Here's how it works -- once you plead guilty, that's it. Game over, case closed, no appeal. Your mistake -- what you still regret to this day -- was in copping the plea. You were completely 100% innocent of the charges, yet you now have a permanent criminal record. You were given bad advice. That sucks for sure, but it illustrates my point perfectly.

pinky


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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Phred]
    #1796327 -

Quote:
pinksharkmark said:
All it shows is that your lawyer was an ass. Your instincts were correct. If you had decided to fight it, odds are a judge would have ripped a huge strip off the prosecutor's ass for daring to waste his time with such shit. If the judge didn't dismiss it then and there, I can guarantee you no district attorney with more intelligence than an electric toaster would have taken it to court.

I was just a teen at the time like Sherman Austin, and didn't know better than to take my lawyer's advice.

Edit: I was actually 23, to be accurate.

Quote:
I still regret that to this day, but it's one example showing iglou is right.

Not at all. It shows that *I* was right.

The statement I was arguing against was when you said: "The fact of the matter is that virtually everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty. The truly innocent almost always insist on going to trial." I was trying to show that this isn't necessarily the case.

Quote:
You were completely 100% innocent of the charges, yet you now have a permanent criminal record.

Part of the deal was that if I stayed clean for a year, it would (and did) disappear from my record. So it's not nearly as bad as it could have been, which is one of the reasons I agreed to plead guilty when I was innocent.


--------------------

Edited by Cornholio (08/09/03 07:56 PM)

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Re: The cost of dissent [Re: Cornholio]
    #1797558 -

Cornholio writes:

I was just a teen at the time like Sherman Austin, and didn't know better than to take my lawyer's advice.

Edit: I was actually 23, to be accurate.

Hopefully some teens or young twenties folks reading this thread will walk away from it better armed than you were at the time.

The statement I was arguing against was when you said: "The fact of the matter is that virtually everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty. The truly innocent almost always insist on going to trial." I was trying to show that this isn't necessarily the case.

I know it isn't always the case. This is why I said virtually everyone, and almost always.

Part of the deal was that if I stayed clean for a year, it would (and did) disappear from my record. So it's not nearly as bad as it could have been, which is one of the reasons I agreed to plead guilty when I was innocent.

You were fortunate not to have been hit with another trumped-up charge in that year, then, weren't you?

Glad to hear it worked out for you, and that the judge involved in the case actually honored the terms of the sentencing agreed to by the prosecution and your defense lawyer. Judges are not obligated to do so, as the case under discussion in this thread illustrates.

pinky


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