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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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 Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded  [Re: Cornholio]
#1782252 - 08/05/03 03:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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No he didn't
Using proceeds to help with the rebuilding is not profiting.
Should we be stupid enough to actually just take their money, then it's both profiting and stealing.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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 Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1782389 - 08/05/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Using proceeds to help with the rebuilding is not profiting.
Should we be stupid enough to actually just take their money, then it's both profiting and stealing.
I guess in my mind, if he had said "the Iraqis" will be using the proceeds for rebuilding, rather than "we" will be using the proceeds for rebuilding, then I'd agree it is not stealing. But we know this isn't the case.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
#1782517 - 08/05/03 04:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Since we will be running the country for awhile, of course it will be we who spend the money.
If the day comes that we wander off with the money, you let me know.
Then we'll be stealing.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1782695 - 08/05/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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shakta: No. Once the country is rebuilt they will be reaping the benefits of their oil as it should be. I would argue that rebuilding their country is profitable for them to. This is not limited to the damage we inflicted either.
right, just like how the guatemalans are profiting off their bananas right? where do you come up with this shit??????
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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Zahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1782776 - 08/05/03 06:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
So zahid if you come to my door for whatever reason if i blow out your intestines with a bit of explosive that was fair game. Please tell me it is so i can give you my adress right now.
I see Palestinians and Arabs alike who attack Israeli and American soldiers in the same light of French citizens who rose up against Nazi soldiers with force. Again, you have to do what you have to do. It's nothing personal towards the soldiers. I don't see what the problem is, frankly. Soldiers = fair game. I'm not a hard liner, I believe bombing civilians is sick and cold blooded murder. But armed forces, especially of an aggressive military, that is another story.
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1782793 - 08/05/03 06:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well.. lemme see.
We are spending their money to rebuild their country, right? Who is doing the rebuilding?
Halliburton - a company that until 2 years ago was partially owned by one Richard Cheney, who also sat on it's board of directors. You know.. the vice president? The guy who still gets $120k a year in 'consulting fees' from the company?
*crap* I've drawn a blank on the other company - out of SF... owned by George Schultz... damn 
Anyhoo... it doesn't really seem to me like they're getting too much of their money to rebuild. Seems a bit like, yet again, the Old Boys Club of the Good Ol US of A is profiting.
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
#1783140 - 08/05/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bechtel. 
Very good point about whose really getting the money! 
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
#1783355 - 08/05/03 10:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said:
I see Palestinians and Arabs alike who attack Israeli and American soldiers in the same light of French citizens who rose up against Nazi soldiers with force. Again, you have to do what you have to do.
so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few. Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.
I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?
Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?
In your view are the men who carried out the attacks on the cole heros?
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783482 - 08/05/03 10:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few.
I think he's comparing someone defending his homeland from invaders to someone defending his homeland from invaders.
Quote:
Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.
"For only friendly reasons"??? Under our rules, you are correct. Now, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. If you want to resist a military that's 50 times stronger than your own, and playing by their rules has a 0% chance of working, wouldn't you make a few of your own rules? (just playing devil's advocate, not agreeing what they did was right).
Quote:
I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?
No more so than the civilians. But since Bin Laden had NO chance of taking on our military, he thought he'd try something different that might accomplish his objectives. I think what he did was 100% wrong, but I can see why he chose that course of action over taking on our military directly.
Quote:
Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?
That's a very good question. We targeted Iraq's military headquarters, so it would seem hypocritical for us to say they can't target ours. Obviously, using a civilian airliner to accomplish this was horrible, but I guess they didn't have any "real" weapons to use.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
#1783561 - 08/05/03 11:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well i didt pose any of that to you corn but i accept the response.
So the us was invading yemen and its people were defending itself from the uss cole? wtf
quote"Under our rules, you are correct. Now, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. If you want to resist a military that's 50 times stronger than your own, and playing by their rules has a 0% chance of working, wouldn't you make a few of your own rules?"
i dont really see your point. Ok so they made some new rules. Those rules happened to be cold blooded murder. I know why they did it, beacuse it effective. If america went to war with canada dropping a nuke on toronto would be "effective".
You also talk of what happened as if we were at war with a country with bin laden as its leader. They struck america beacuse america left afganiss "hangin" 10 yrs prior. Why binladen thought killing innocent people in america would somehow make up for what happened to afganistan is not understood by me.
quote "That's a very good question. We targeted Iraq's military headquarters, so it would seem hypocritical for us to say they can't target ours. Obviously, using a civilian airliner to accomplish this was horrible, but I guess they didn't have any "real" weapons to use."
again when were we at war with a country that bin laden headed? It obvious why we struck iraqi headquaters to take out command and control to beat their army. i dont think bin laden was expecting to accomplish this.
Corn i ask you this: You talk of bin laden's objectives. Do you think his objectives were to crumble the gov't of america or to just kill innocent americans hence pissing off more americans. Even he knew there was no way he could accomplish the first so i assume it was for the second objective.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Zahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783649 - 08/05/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few.
I didn't say that. I am comparing French resistance fighters to Palestinian/Arab resistance fighters. Surely, the Nazis are the most guilty military in history.
Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.
How exactly does one "resist" the United States?
Remember, soldiers carry guns.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
#1783676 - 08/05/03 11:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i carry i gun to. I hope that doesnt allow any random person to kill me.
And just beacuse a contry cant beat another country's military it doesnt make it right to attack innocent people from that country.
When america was at war with iraq i certainly couldnt beat the iraq millitary by myself. Did that allow to kill any iraq i choose.
and plz answer my other questions
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Xlea321
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783686 - 08/05/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?
Were the 750,000 plus children under five who died in Iraq thanks to sanctions "fair game"?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783817 - 08/06/03 12:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
So the us was invading yemen and its people were defending itself from the uss cole? wtf
Since the US frequently bombs military targets to achieve its objectives without being attacked first, the attackers of the USS Cole may have felt they had a right to do the same thing.
Quote:
i dont really see your point. Ok so they made some new rules. Those rules happened to be cold blooded murder.
I completely agree. But unfortunately, there are countless cases of America committing cold-blooded murder.
Quote:
You also talk of what happened as if we were at war with a country with bin laden as its leader. They struck america beacuse america left afganiss "hangin" 10 yrs prior. Why binladen thought killing innocent people in america would somehow make up for what happened to afganistan is not understood by me.
I think you misunderstand why Osama attacked America. Perhaps you should read his letter to America.
Quote:
Corn i ask you this: You talk of bin laden's objectives. Do you think his objectives were to crumble the gov't of america or to just kill innocent americans hence pissing off more americans. Even he knew there was no way he could accomplish the first so i assume it was for the second objective.
See his letter.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
#1783855 - 08/06/03 12:38 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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As with any extremist anything they say either their reasons or whatever i take with a grain of sand. It could could be bs as such is the "jihad" crap. I really dont care. I was just generalizing about one thing he did it for, basicaly the only somewhat justifiable reason in my mind. And you cant really compare any american millitary operation to a suprise suicide attack on innocent people. Untill america intentionally bombs a school just to kill little foriegn kids ill think that way.
And alex stop making such preposterous agruements. The UN backed up every one of those sanctions against iraq so dont put blame on america. And maybe if saddam didnt spend thousands on a single gold toilet then maybe those kids would have lived. Saddam had a fucking billion dollers in a single bank, money which could have saved many of those lives. So dont blame a single fucking one of those kids deaths on america.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
#1783890 - 08/06/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
Bechtel.
Very good point about whose really getting the money!
Yah - Bechtel.
Thank you, and thank you 
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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Zahid
Stranger
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783912 - 08/06/03 01:03 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i carry i gun to. I hope that doesnt allow any random person to kill me.
Don't be silly. Are you part of an otherwise evil military power?
And just beacuse a contry cant beat another country's military it doesnt make it right to attack innocent people from that country.
Why do you keep saying 'innocent'? Are the Americans killed in the Iraqi and Afghan wars innocent? Innocent people are non-combatants.
When america was at war with iraq i certainly couldnt beat the iraq millitary by myself. Did that allow to kill any iraq i choose.
You're twisting my words. I am talking about soldiers, not civilians.
I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?
Absolutely not. In fact it is this logic that terrorists use.
Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?
I don't think so, as most of the people employed at the Pentagon are civilian government workers.
As for the whole array of different 'military types' you're always mentioning, if they're deployed in the region, I'd say they're fair game.
In your view are the men who carried out the attacks on the cole heros?
No, as the men who carried out the attack were likely indiscriminate - they would have killed innocent civilians if given the order to. They just happened to be part of an operation that attacked, in my view, a legitimate target.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
#1783933 - 08/06/03 01:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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While I don't agree at all with the hijacking of civilian airliners, or the bombing of the world trade center, Bin Laden did give his justification in his letter.
I'll cut and paste the more interesting parts of his letter here:
(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
(Q2) What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(he gives a lengthy, but very intersting explanation backing this up)
(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.
(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;
(again, he goes on to give a lengthy, but very intersting explanation backing this up).
(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of your international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.
(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.
(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.
(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.
(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:
(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.
(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.
(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.
The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:
Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?
If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.
(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(he goes on to give a lengthy explanation of why he believes Islam is a good religion)
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(he goes on to give a lengthy, explanation of why he believes this, such as):
(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.
(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts.
(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?
(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.
(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!
(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.
(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.
(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.
(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.
What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"
(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.
(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands.
(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education.
(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.
This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
#1784122 - 08/06/03 03:30 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If the money actually goes to the rebuilding of the country, what difference does it make who does the work?
I'll repeat, should the US just start carting money away, let me know.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
#1784125 - 08/06/03 03:36 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Were the 750,000 plus children under five who died in Iraq thanks to sanctions "fair game"?
That numbers been debunked enough times to make it rather silly of you to keep bringing it up.
Plus, there would have been no sanctions had Saddam complied with the surrender agreement.
Plus, how many would have died anyway? From non-sanction related causes?
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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