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Offlinedanelectro
Disenfranchised

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 211
Loc: Left of Oblivion
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
1984 Orwell the prophet
    #1783898 - 08/06/03 02:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Just thinking about how true that book is to today. The enemy is always changing, what the hell ever happened to Osama, we never got him, but you don't ever hear about him anymore. Oceania is forming, this one is just a fluke if the world did split into three factions I can't see britain as part of the western hemisphere blok, strategically impossible, but eh. We are forced to double think every day. Look at the proof, accept lies, destroy the proof, damn efficiient system. I know there are many more paralells but I'm lazy. If you haven't read 1984 go read it damnit, it will take you maybe 4 hours.


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We should really love each other, in peace and harmony. Instead we're fussing and fighting, like we ain't supposed to be.-Bob Marley
The people, the still sleeping mass which it was necessary to mobilize and its vanguard, the guerrillas.
-Che


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: danelectro]
    #1784517 - 08/06/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The best example of Orwell's police state was Iraq before the US invasion.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: wingnutx]
    #1784839 - 08/06/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree...the best prison is the one without walls....

If the us hadn't fucked around, iraq would have liberated itself as repressed peoples have done since our creation. Now when people are afraid, or don't know if they're neigboor is a terrorist, this atmosphere of distrust and negativety keep people occupied. America is far from 1984, but anyone with an ounce of sense can see the foundation for this controll has been laid and settled...soon it'll be time to start the next floor.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785045 - 08/06/03 02:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
America is far from 1984, but anyone with an ounce of sense can see the foundation for this controll has been laid and settled...soon it'll be time to start the next floor.




Unfortunately, it seems that there are WAY too few people with an ounce of sense left at the moment...


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1785079 - 08/06/03 03:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

To bad we can not all be as 'progressive' and 'enlightened' as you.


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: shakta]
    #1785095 - 08/06/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That's what I keep thinking!

That's okay, Shak - all you can do is try your best.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785199 - 08/06/03 03:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
If the us hadn't fucked around, iraq would have liberated itself as repressed peoples have done since our creation.





Iraqis have tried and failed to saddam murdered hundreads of thousands of them. Mowing down countless people in warehouses and then he gassed his people. Although the iraq army sucks the iraq people as a whole are even more sucky. They had no leader no common goal they would have never overcome him without help.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: d33p]
    #1785220 - 08/06/03 03:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Azmodeus said:
If the us hadn't fucked around, iraq would have liberated itself as repressed peoples have done since our creation.





Iraqis have tried and failed to saddam murdered hundreads of thousands of them. Mowing down countless people in warehouses and then he gassed his people. Although the iraq army sucks the iraq people as a whole are even more sucky. They had no leader no common goal they would have never overcome him without help.




What I find so odd is that over the last year, this number has gone from "hundreds" to "thousands" to "tens of thousands" to "hundreds of thousands".

I have been unable to find any real information on this without incredible slant to one side or the other. I know that the 'murders' in question were an ethnic issue revolving around a Kurd uprising in northern Iraq. I can't find any real numbers. Nor can I find any evidence suggesting that it's much different than what has occurred in Poland, Boznia, Yugoslavia, Soviet Georgia, Chechnya, Camaroon, Nigeria, Niger, Sierra Leone, Liberia, or Somalia in the last 20 years - except for that it was done by Hussein.

Someone please inform me.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1785229 - 08/06/03 03:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The Kurds were only one group Saddam murdered in mass. The Shiites in the south were murdered by the thousand as well.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1785895 - 08/06/03 07:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

GernBlanston writes:

What I find so odd is that over the last year, this number has gone from "hundreds" to "thousands" to "tens of thousands" to "hundreds of thousands".

The various human rights groups have been saying for years that it is in the hundreds of thousands -- at least I first read such figures back when Slick Willy was still prez.

The most commonly accepted numbers are from Human Rights Watch if I recall correctly. Their figure is around 290,000 and it is by no means the highest figure out there. That figure may be revised upwards as further discoveries are made.

pinky


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 18 days
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Phred]
    #1786194 - 08/06/03 08:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'll admit, 290,000 is impressive, but he doesn't hold the record:

Number of Iraqis who have died as a result of santions: ~500,000

For those of you that believe Iraq itself is to blame for the deaths resulting from sactions, then you'd better not post your opinion here because it is wrong and I will kill you and it will be YOUR OWN fault because I just warned you.  (I'm just kidding of course, but do you see the flaw in that logic now?  :grin:)         


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Cornholio]
    #1786213 - 08/06/03 08:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

No I don't see the fault in the logic at all. The numbers of dead children caused by the sanctions are most likely highly exagerated anyway. Clinton was in office for the majority of the time the sanctions were being enforced. Blame him if you really believe these deaths are our fault. Your example is pretty weak though. We never threatened to kill anyone through sanctions. You threatening to kill me is not the same as all. If you want to try my soon to possibly be banned Mini 14 I just got might have something to say about it.

Just kidding of course. I would not mind hooking up with you over a few beers the next time I am in Austin actually.

Suppose the deaths were our fault. How does that justify his killing of 300,000 people?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 18 days
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: shakta]
    #1786418 - 08/06/03 09:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

True, the actual number of deaths from sanctions is difficult to determine, it's been estimated from 300,000 to 1.5 million.  But even it it were 300,000, that's still catastrophically high.

And I absolutetly agree that Clinton is largely to blame for the sanctions.

Though we never threatened to kill anyone with the sanctions, that's the effect the sanctions had.

Nothing justifies Saddam's killing of 300,000 people.  But many people seem to think that our killing of 500,000 (or whatever the number is) is justified by Saddam's killing of 300,000.


Ya, if you're ever in Austin, PM me; there's a TON of AWESOME beer joints here!  :laugh:   


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Cornholio]
    #1786534 - 08/06/03 10:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Austin kicks ass.
Sorry.
Back to topic now.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 18 days
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1786571 - 08/06/03 10:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The invite goes to anyone who doesn't think I'm a total ass.  Of course, if I think you're an ass (and there's only a small number of you), then I'll politely decline.  :grin: 


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Cornholio]
    #1787274 - 08/07/03 03:26 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

there is nothing prophetic about 1984. That book was about totalitarian and communist governments (soviet union) during the post-war period.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineCrobih
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Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: danelectro]
    #1788480 - 08/07/03 02:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Orwell made a great point to us where are we going to finish if we do not slap ourselves and start to act against that direction!


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Crobih]
    #1789439 - 08/07/03 07:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

what do mean where we are going to finish? orwellian states exist today, re: libya, singapore, china, etc etc.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1789487 - 08/07/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

atomikfunksoldier said:
there is nothing prophetic about 1984. That book was about totalitarian and communist governments (soviet union) during the post-war period.



It is both prophetic and historical, as humans tend to arrogantly believe that somehow they are immune to the follies of those that have come before them, being prone to romanticism and fantasies of utopian visions that ignore human nature, they invariably lead themselves to repeat the mistakes of the past.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Re: 1984 Orwell the prophet [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789682 - 08/07/03 08:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

humans tend to arrogantly believe that somehow they are immune to the follies of those that have come before them, being prone to romanticism and fantasies of utopian visions that ignore human nature, they invariably lead themselves to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Excellent point.

As Frank Zappa once said:
"You probably think I'm talking about someone else... but YOU'RE an asshole."


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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