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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: Vaipen]
    #17953701 - 03/14/13 07:14 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah you have to watch out for the pseudo-scientists on this forum. They like to claim that science has the answer to everything, and then they don't even have a basic knowledge of science :laugh2:. And when you call them out on that fact or anything else for that matter, they cry "personalism, personalism!" These are the cries of a fourteen year old pseudo-intellectual. And when they may be fearing that their true identity might be revealed, the Hitchens-juniors reply with the classic "you didn't provide enough evidence to backup your claims" as a way of dodging any further investigation into their bullshit. 

Oh, but don't say anything remotely "religious" or "spiritual" lest they call you out on your personal nature :rolleyes:. First-class hypocrites.

(can't wait to see what kind of flak I receive for this one):biggrin:


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Posts: 8,535
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17953775 - 03/14/13 07:40 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
That was not a personalism at all. It was an observation.

I find it strange how people want to debate issues but do not want to reveal anything about themselves. Very scientific. But to understand someone's position isn't it helpful to understand where they are coming from? I think it serves little purpose on a forum to hide behind the scientific idea that we should debate each other's  arguments and totally ignore the man behind the opinion. Is it that scary?

But I decline to re-state my views to you. I gave my argument and reasoning and all you come back with is single word replies. Like "No." If you don't see science as a way to look at reality, then there is nothing left to say. Because if you won't agree even on that, something so obviously true, then you are just being argumentative rather than engaging me in a meaningful conversation. I have no time for that.




"Arguing" someone's position by saying that they hold it steadfastly isn't a counterargument to their position at all. It would be like arguing that their position isn't tenuous because their tie is green. It doesn't have any relevance to the argument at all. It doesn't matter if the argument is science or ethics. That is a form of ad hominem (a personalism) because it attempts to discredit the person's argument on the basis of the opponent's attributes, not the argument's attributes.

Whether or not someone is a hypocrite bears no weight on their argument. It seems that this is upsetting because you want your good deeds and socially-moral ideals to mean something. They may, but you won't win that debate by employing the ad hominem strategy (or any of the other logical fallacies). Check out the logical fallacies sticky.



Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Yeah you have to watch out for the pseudo-scientists on this forum. They like to claim that science has the answer to everything, and then they don't even have a basic knowledge of science :laugh2:. And when you call them out on that fact or anything else for that matter, they cry "personalism, personalism!" These are the cries of a fourteen year old pseudo-intellectual. And when they may be fearing that their true identity might be revealed, the Hitchens-juniors reply with the classic "you didn't provide enough evidence to backup your claims" as a way of dodging any further investigation into their bullshit. 

Oh, but don't say anything remotely "religious" or "spiritual" lest they call you out on your personal nature :rolleyes:. First-class hypocrites.

(can't wait to see what kind of flak I receive for this one):biggrin:



The first paragraph is a gross misrepresentation of debate strategies. The one-two punch in the middle is a personalism.

The great thing about this forum is that you don't have to be an expert/scientist to debate, which is what you seem to be implying. As long as you know the rules of debate, then you have a fighting chance.


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full blown human

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: Vaipen]
    #17953855 - 03/14/13 08:05 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

That was not a personalism at all. It was an observation.

It was a personal observation that has nothing to do with the debate. John could be a nice guy, or an asshole, or stuck in his ways, or even a flaming drag queen with an ugly tie and none of that has anything to do with whether or not what he says is valid. That's why you attack what he says and leave him out of the debate.

If you want to debate him instead of the topic of the thread, then open a john thread in OTD and debate by name calling and insult people all you want. That's how they debate there. Here it's against the rules.

Don't do it again.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: ConfettiHead] * 1
    #17954069 - 03/14/13 09:09 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Yeah you have to watch out for the pseudo-scientists on this forum. They like to claim that science has the answer to everything, and then they don't even have a basic knowledge of science :laugh2:. And when you call them out on that fact or anything else for that matter, they cry "personalism, personalism!" These are the cries of a fourteen year old pseudo-intellectual. And when they may be fearing that their true identity might be revealed, the Hitchens-juniors reply with the classic "you didn't provide enough evidence to backup your claims" as a way of dodging any further investigation into their bullshit. 

Oh, but don't say anything remotely "religious" or "spiritual" lest they call you out on your personal nature :rolleyes:. First-class hypocrites.

(can't wait to see what kind of flak I receive for this one):biggrin:




what a crock. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: ConfettiHead] * 1
    #17954167 - 03/14/13 09:30 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah you have to watch out for the pseudo-scientists on this forum. They like to claim that science has the answer to everything :blah:

Blah blah blah...

Whenever someone starts to shift from debating facts to making up wild hyperbole, I know that their position is full of shit and they're starting to realize it. So unable to defend it in good-faith debate, they start to grossly exaggerate and misrepresent things to shore up their failing argument.

Hint: the truth doesn't need any help. It doesn't need hyperbole or bending or twisting. It stands on its own. Which is how I know that when someone starts exaggerating to support their argument, it's because their argument doesn't hold water.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: Diploid]
    #17954694 - 03/14/13 11:56 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid, you have continued to respond with legitimate, sober, reasonable responses. Maybe that's why you're a mod. Even if I don't agree with every point you make I still highly respect your delivery and your rationale. However there are others here, who I won't name, that either reply with one word replies like, "Nope" or with non-replies like "You didn't provide enough evidence" or they play team player and instead of replying to the topic at hand they simply piggyback others' posts with, "Yeah, you really got that guy! Haha!" This type of responding goes against the debate-oriented style (and I have been guilty of responding this way too and I'm trying to change it) and it's simply dog shit. All I ask is that these people be recognized for their bullfuckery (despite what views they may hold) just as much as the next person.


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Edited by ConfettiHead (03/14/13 12:12 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17954803 - 03/14/13 12:19 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

You were asked to substantiate your claims, you failed to do so and now you're just whining that people have challenged you.

Oh, and I don't moderate this forum, so go look for official oppression somewhere else.  :haha:

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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: johnm214]
    #17954899 - 03/14/13 12:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
You were asked to substantiate your claims, you failed to do so and now you're just whining that people have challenged you.

Oh, and I don't moderate this forum, so go look for official oppression somewhere else.  :haha:




What claims? You mean Neil Bohr's claim that was proven wrong years ago? Didn't we go over this three weeks ago? And you're still replying with the same old "substantiate your claims" bullshit? You continue to play ring around the rosy with me and we continue to fall down. This is fucking pointless; I hope you are aware of that.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: johnm214]
    #17955525 - 03/14/13 03:27 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
You were asked to substantiate your claims, you failed to do so and now you're just whining that people have challenged you.

Oh, and I don't moderate this forum, so go look for official oppression somewhere else.  :haha:




Everyone knows you are part of the Modluminati. :yesnod:


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17955557 - 03/14/13 03:37 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
In quantum mechanics, physics has run up against the limit of what science can hope to know. What seems like nonsense is nonsense. We need to realize that science, though wonderfully good at predicting individual experiments, cannot tell us about reality itself, which may forever remain behind a veil. Science merely reveals what reality looks like to us.




True
The real problem is with measuring/perceiving

Once you measure something you already created it by looking at it

When you measure something in QM, you collapse the wavefunction(the position probability of what you measure) to a spike narrowed at where you measure it, meaning you created it.

That is why they usually measure with many particles in the same state iirc.

But they still don't know what a measurement is.
Like we don't know what reality is, there is no common reality
we each create our own reality.
everybody you know's reality is very different from your own
we agreed on rules in our culture for what 'reality' is.


But Maybe QM is true
maybe the universe is non-deterministic (even though I don't believe that)
maybe we can walk through walls, jump off cliffs and be reflected back
and be in 2 places at the same time
and be connected to everything in the universe at the same time (at least we are with gravity... gravity extends to infinity)

It certainly is validated everyday with electronics(transistors) etc.


we still need a theory that incorporates gravity though, hope that happens soon
gravity is weird... it is the only force that has no opposite
and somehow it is the weakest of the 4 natural forces we know

yet it still controls the universe on the large scale


what is even more weird, is how gravity looks EXACTLY like coulomb's force (force between charges)
F=Qq/r^2  , F=GmM/r^2 

only a constant differs
yet we understand electrodynamics completely, one of the best theories of physics (due to maxwell)
but we understand nothing about gravity on the small scale.

electrodynamics works fine even inside atoms

Edited by lessismore (03/14/13 04:11 PM)

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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955581 - 03/14/13 03:42 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

From own experience it is very true that you can create things by perceiving/looking at it

By thinking positively you can change the world around you.

Mind is all.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955592 - 03/14/13 03:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry but you can't change the world around you just by how you think about it. You can chance only your perception. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955597 - 03/14/13 03:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I believe string theory/Many world theory describes reality pretty well too

many dimensions, many realities, many universes


to the one saying you cannot change the world by thinking it:
your thoughts/state of being affect everyone around you more than you think
I've done it, and I've seen it done (TM practitioners,buddists do it i.e.)

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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955600 - 03/14/13 03:46 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think of this material realm as some small part of a greater realm (the spiritual realm)

But I have only personal experience to back it up, dreaming (lucid dreaming), trips, and sitting in nature

Edited by lessismore (03/14/13 04:08 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore] * 1
    #17955644 - 03/14/13 03:54 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

blah blah blah:braindamage:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955657 - 03/14/13 03:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

o the one saying you cannot change the world by thinking it:
your thoughts/state of being affect everyone around you more than you think
I've done it, and I've seen it done (TM practitioners,buddists do it i.e.)


Your thoughts don't affect me in the lest.  If it was true the TM nuts would have brought about world peace long ago.  Get real.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: Icelander]
    #17955717 - 03/14/13 04:05 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry but you can't change the world around you just by how you think about it. You can chance only your perception. :tongue:




You can change other people too
People understand/react to empathy and can feel if you think positively
It affects your whole family and everyone around you

Happiness spreads
like negativity....

it is up to you which you want to spread

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955731 - 03/14/13 04:08 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Lets see you change how I feel. Start now. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: Icelander]
    #17955818 - 03/14/13 04:26 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

We interacted by having this conversation

thereby I changed your state, according to QM :smile:

Maybe I changed you subconsciously without you knowing :smile:
(just like your parents programmed you without your knowledge, your beliefs and worldview are not your beliefs, but due to your environment and childhood, you may think they are your beliefs though)

Everything in this world is energy interacting
just being in this world makes a difference to everyone around you
you can decide what difference you want to make by how you are as a person
(again in QM view, you change the states of everything you interact with)

If that programming thing is true, then
we have no saying in what we believe and our consciousness
maybe everything is predetermined/we dont have much free will.

You already made your choices in childhood, and those choices were made for you

I think I saw a study somewhere that said that conscious thought is an illusion, our subconscious decision is fetched before we have a chance to rethink it.
We act out the subconscious in our consciousness, thinking we acted with a conscious action, but the opposite is true according to what they measured with brain signals.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Quantum Mechanics and The Nature of Reality [Re: lessismore]
    #17955925 - 03/14/13 04:48 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe I changed you subconsciously without you knowing

Well I did laugh out loud when I read your utterly stoopid statements.

Like this one.

I think I saw a study somewhere:rofl2:



But then again I laugh at just about everything. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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