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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Witch Trials ... With a Twist.
    #1778746 - 08/04/03 05:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Picture this:



In older times, there is a conversation taking place between some individuals.


The discussion turns to future unfolding events.  The one discussing these events stretches out the hands, and begins moving the fingers  [ ...The reaction of the spectators is that of fear, since the finger movement by the "Story-teller's" outstretched hands looks unusual to them... ].


Then the Story-teller continues by motionning with one hand..  In a manner that pointed from the head, to the heads of the others [ ...Gasps and open mouths are strongly noted... ].


Suddenly, the atmosphere changes. 


Hostility is now very apparent. 


The story-teller becomes labelled with being in the league with something what they identified as unholy and corrupt...  :devil:


The charge:  "The Stoy-teller is a Witch !!"



What follows, is untimely death.

-------------------------



When I was very young, I was told by my parents, that in some cases,  a person was identified as a Witch if they posessed a certain symbol.


According to them,  the symbol consisted of the letters  N Y on the left hand.



Take a quick look at your left hand for this next part..



There are three major lines on the hand:


1- A Heart Line- The top of the three,
2- A Head Line-  The next one down,  and
3- A Life Line-  The one that goes aroung the base of the thumb.


The "N" part of the symbol consisted of the Life Line and the Head Line as the first part of the N with another line extending upwards to the Heart line.

The "Y"  part of the symbol was made up of the Heart Line with a small line attatchnemt near the far left part of the Heart Line making a Y.

I hope I've illustrated well how these letters were observed.



I was wondering if I could get some help on this..

Perhaps, there are none, but I'd like to get assistance in finding even one  reference.  I'd really like to back that up with litterature if at all possible.  I think, that it was a practice somewhere in Europe.



10 Shrooms for all the ones who try to help me out [ 5 general, and 5 trade ] !!!!



Also...  In return..



I'll give you something to remember...



There exist some very intense feelings..

... One of them, is burning at the stake ...


Feelings are based on Emotion [ That is, how you perceive them ].

Emotions are regulated by occurences.


Occurences connect with you on a multi-level plane.

- So make the connection and regain your control.


Mathematically, if something can go one way, the reverse way is also a possibility.


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1778774 - 08/04/03 05:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

In the witch burning days they used to brand a letter into the palms of convicted criminals. The "raise your right hand and swear..." is a direct decendent of this practice. By raising their right hand before the judge, the defendent let the judge know if they had previously been convicted of a crime.

This isn't quite what you are after, but it is the only thing I know of related to images on the palms of the hand and witch burning times...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Seuss]
    #1779051 - 08/04/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

holy shit im a witch!! please dont burn me i sware i only ate a few children.

sorry cant help you but you know the significance of the letters? do they stand for anything?


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1781780 - 08/05/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"...the significance of the letters? do they stand for anything?"
-------------------------


I am trying to find a source to solidify this.


N= nomine:  in name

Y= ydolotrare: to worship images



Due to hostility aggravated by intense fear, the context of it became known as follows:

" To worship images in name  [of]    :devil: !!! "


At the time of the trials,  the devil was TREMENDOUSLY FEARED !

:eek:



So...  can anyone help me?

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1781804 - 08/05/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Here's Part 1: The First Twist Installment



Witchcraft is a nature religion, not unlike that of shamanism, and is considered pagan religion. With this concept of worshipping nature, witches believe in the idea of dualism. What this means is that they believe that everything in nature, including humans, has a male and female (this can be related to Christianity?s good/evil concept).

The God and The Goddess of Wicca represent the male/female aspect of nature. These are what witches worship; so when one asks if a witch believes in God, the answer is yes, but as a creative force and not in the Christian sense. The Goddess of Wicca represents the continuation of existence in nature and she has three forms:


1-  The first is Herodias, or The Maiden who is the symbol of birth and beginning. One who worships this form of the goddess must be a virgin, but one who follows The Maiden is said to have the innocence of perception and stronger psychic abilities.


2-  The second form is Diana Gaia, or The Mother. She represents life in its? prime. Her followers learn to use sex as a power source and don?t have the ?blind spots? that sometimes occur from having a perception of innocence.


3-  The final form is Hecate, Anatha, or The Crone. She is believed to represent death and ending. Witches that follow the path of The Crone gain wisdom and objectivity that comes with age.



The God of Wicca is the symbol of the male element of nature; he represents cycles, that of a year (birth, life, death and re-birth). He is believed to born to The Goddess, and dies on all hallows? eve each year.

Some types of Wicca believe that The God has three forms-the blue God of spring, the green God of summer, and the brown God of fall.



As one can see, witches do not worship the devil. In the morals of the craft, there actually is no incentive for witches to do evil work, and they do not worship any evil entities at all.

Source

:lipsrsealed: 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1782929 - 08/05/03 09:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Some people practice magic in a negative way, but most that practice anything that involves with playing with energy does it for a positive purpose. Energy is known for blowing up in your face if used wrong.


--------------------


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1784927 - 08/06/03 02:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i have two "anarchy" symbols. they are connected as the line extends from the apex of the a to the other apex of the other. they connect the head heart and life lines. maybe thats in a book, or just a neat looking design.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1786173 - 08/06/03 08:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Such lines seem to reflect an interesting character...  Based on our past  interactions, I'd have to agree !

:thumbup:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1786206 - 08/06/03 08:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

wicca didnt have anything to do with the witch trials it was invented in the 70s i think. wiccans always confused me cuz they worship anything they like from any religion. you gotta have some standards man.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1786326 - 08/06/03 09:28 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"you gotta have some standards man"
------------------------


Yeah, there is truth to that statement... But who sets the standard?

Looking at various faiths and philosophies, one begins to notice simiarity in the concepts. Focussing solely upon linguistic details tends to create barriers.

I simply used the wicca perspective as a relative current example.


Here's a quote from the next link I'll put forth...

" It should also be pointed out that the court recorders at the Witch trials were specifically instructed that, whatever gods or goddesses the accused actually claimed to worship, what went into the record was "Satan," or "The Devil." "


Link


The reason behind that? They were petrified with fear...

So, they tried to compensate for their insecurities by attempting to induce fear through the trials.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineAmber
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Devil Worship [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1786782 - 08/07/03 12:14 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Satan = 'Single Foot' = Mushrooms

Witches = Devil Worshippers = entheogen users

Honestly, how did you think they flew around on those brooms?

Amber



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Amber]
    #1786871 - 08/07/03 12:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"Honestly, how did you think they flew around on those brooms?

Amber "
-----------------

Exactly!  False allegations of that nature may have been spread to further justify "Black Magik", which was used to make a case against the so called "Evil Devil Worshippers".


Concerning the users,  although it may be true in some cases,  I wouldn't say that its a proper label the way you used it...  But I could be mistaking in your use of that correlation.


Native indians and Amazonian cultures, to name a couple, practice the use of mind altering substances also...  I don't believe that its use resulted in any kind of evil doing... Rather, they are some of the cultures most "in tune" with nature.


BTW-  Welcome to the Forum Amber..  You joined in at a good time !  :grin:


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineAmber
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1788083 - 08/07/03 01:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the welcome! It's great to find a forum like this!

No, I don't consider "devil worship" in the sense of entheogen use to be "evil" as the Church described it, or to even result in many of the "black magik" practices they attributed to it. Such things are primarily an issue of semantics, and the Church was infamous for labeling good things bad during the witch trials and misrepresenting them in order to prove their claims. Fundamentalists of all kinds have always claimed disreputable practices by marginalized groups in order to discredit them, and it's always the same old propaganda. The Romans claimed the early Christians sacrificed babies under the full moon, practiced cannibalism, sodomy, cultish mind control, etc., all in a subversive plot to overthrow the Empire. The Catholics later claimed these things about the Pagans. Now, some fundamentalist Protestants claim them about the Catholics, Mormons, Pagans, etc. Most modern Palestinian propaganda make these claims about the Israelis, just as the Nazis did about the Jews during WWII. I doubt much of any of it is actually true.

The Witches of the Middle Ages were mostly shamanic nature worshippers and herbal healers, much like the Indians and Amazonians of the Americas. The Church found these groups a threat for several reasons, but it primarily rested in the fact the majority of Europeans felt more keenly attuned to these religions than the invading Christian religion. The Church realized that if they were ever going to have any real power over the general populace of these countries, they would have to destroy their native religions. So, they invented a bunch of lies and twisted the nature of "witchcraft" to be something malicious and evil, in order to justify their campaign of oppression and genocide. What most people don't realize about the witch trials is that it wasn't a simple matter of trying and burning a few women here and there; entire villages of nature worshippers were wiped out by the Inquisition. The knights of the Catalan and other Spanish territories provided the armed forces the Church needed to do this, and it's no coincidence that it was this same force who decimated the native population of the Americas, shortly after they ran out of victims in Europe. You could say that modern Western civilization and its conquistadore ethic is founded on the subjugation and murder of shamanic culture. When you consider this, the Devil may very well be the good guy with a slandered reputation. All he ever did was give us visions of a greater reality not bound by the rules of mundane consciousness. For this, the Church perpetuated wrongs that make the worst of their black magik claims look like child's play. But then we tend to manifest what we focus on, so what more could we expect from them than to create the hell they were supposedly fighting?

Amber


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1788500 - 08/07/03 02:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

amber i think it would be foolhardy to stereotype all the witches into one group. im sure any other faith besides christianity would of been viewed as witch craft. most werent even witches at all and for all we know there could even of been genuine devil worshipping hags running around naked in the full moon.

deiymiyan would you mind telling why your researching this? you sure seem to love quoting it. :smile:  my knowlege of witch craft is pretty much limited to flying ointments. but ive read a few old books on the subject. 


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1788675 - 08/07/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"deiymiyan would you mind telling why your researching this?"
------------------


My friend,  I am bringing information, as current as I can find possible sources, to the table.

When I submit part 2-  The Second Twist Installment...  you will understand where I'm going with this.

Patience, is a virtue.
===========



"you sure seem to love quoting it."
------------------

The quotes are "on the topic of the thread"...  I'm simply submitting sources, as part of a foundation,  to back up what I'm going to say in the near future.
============



Amber,  what a fantastic write-up !!!    :thumbup:

Bonus Points for that !

   


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineAmber
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1788809 - 08/07/03 04:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Lazerouth spake unto us thusly:
>>amber i think it would be foolhardy to stereotype all the witches into one group.<< 

I said "mostly". That's as qualified as I can make my statement without presenting a dissertation on the variety of socio-religious institutions of Middle Ages Europe. I don't have that desire, much less that kind of an attention span. Besides, as a modern Witch who's done quite a bit of study on the history of my spiritual path and its connection to entheogen use, I feel fairly qualified to comment on it. If you disagree with me, that's your shit. You're free to do it, but unless you have something constructive to contribute, you're just criticizing someone else's beliefs for the hell of it, and that's really kind of lame.

I do believe there were witches dancing naked under the Full Moon; I do not believe, however, they were sacrificing babies and eating their flesh and making hellish pacts with the personification of evil at the same time. Like I said, this is primarily an issue of semantics. Dancing naked under the Full Moon is not fundamentally wrong or evil, the Church just presented it in a way to make it seem diabolic. The kind of 'Satanists' who sacralize these images are in fact revering something that probably didn't really exist. They're buying into Church propaganda. The reality was probably closer to the native shamanism found in all primitive cultures. This isn't to say it was the fluff-bunny Paganism modern Wicca likes to portray as "witchcraft," since ritual entheogenic use can be a shattering experience in its own right, but it wasn't the nastiness the Malleus Maleficum (or the slasher genre :wink:) would have us believe, either.

Amber

P.S. Thanks for the blue shrooms, Deiymiyan! :smile:


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Amber]
    #1789595 - 08/07/03 07:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i wasnt criticising our spiritual beliefs i was criticising your historical observations. it was in no way an attack on you personally and theres no need to get all defensive.

dancing naked in the full moon is good espescially if your drunk or a woman. after watching alot of movies about witch craft im definatly an expert. it was the womans job to dance naked while the men got drunk. then at the peak of the ceremony the men would defile the women. wow being a pagan is fun!

i agree that wiccans are to fluffy and alot of modern belief has its roots in very violent things indeed. however ive never heard of entheogen use in european witch craft could you give me an example?

have you guys heard of the hand of glory? more of a thieves toy than a fetish but worth discussion.


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1789765 - 08/07/03 08:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

like i said before i think this was used primarily by robbers as ive never heard any reports of its use as an idol in witch craft. im unsure as to wether there was a genuine connection or if it was just made up by thieves trying to scare people shitless.

heres some info on the hand copied from a random place.....
(i put my comments in italics to avoid confusion)

This was a right hand of a murderer that was severed while the corpse was still hanging from the gallows. It was then used as a charm or in black magic practices after being magically perserved. It is also believed robbers often used the hand when breaking into buildings and homes.

Preferably the hand was cut off during the eclipse of the moon. Afterwards it was wrapped in a shroud, squeezed of blood and pickled for two weeks in an earthenware jar with salt, long peppers and saltpeter. Then it was either dried in an oven with vervain, an herb believed to be able to ward off demands, or laid out to dry in the sun, desirably in the hot dog days of August.

When the hand was ready, candles were fitted on it between the fingers. These were called the "dead man's candles" were made from another murderer's fat, with the wick being made from his hair.

Another method of curing the severed and dried hand was dip it in wax. After this process the fingers themselves could be lit.

The hand with burning candles or fingers was shocking when coming at people. It froze them in their tracks and rendered them speechless. Burglars lit the hand before entering homes. A warning sign was that if the thumb would not light it meant there was someone in the house who could not be charmed or made afraid. It was believed once the hand was lit nothing but milk could extinguish it.

Homeowners attempted to fight back. To combat the hand of glory all sorts of ointments were smeared on the thresholds. The compositions of these various ointments consisted of everything from the blood of screech owls, the fat of white hens, or the bowl of black cats. Perhaps these concoctions worked if they were slimy enough to trip up the burglars.

The hand of glory was linked to witches during the witch-hunt period. There are two noted incidences. One, in 1588, of two German women, Nichel and Bessers, that were accused of witchcraft and exhuming corpses. They admitted poisoning helpless people after lighting the hands of glory to immobilize them. John Fian, after being severely tortured during his witch trial in Scotland in 1590, confessed to using a hand of glory to break into a church where he performed a ceremony to the devil.

The term the "hand of glory" is believed to be derived from the French "main de glorie" or "mandrogore" and be related to the legends of the mandrake. The mandrake plant was believed to grow under the gallows of the hanged man.

Belief in the efficacy of the Hand of Glory persisted as late as 1831 in Ireland.



along with paralyzing anyone unfortunate to come in contact with it it was also thought that it would prevent sleeping persons from waking so long as the hand stayed lit. heres something on that.



The girl lay down for a nap on the longsettle by the fire, but before she shut her eyes she took a good look at the traveler, who was sitting on the opposite side of the hearth, and espied a pair of man's trousers peeping out from under the gown.

All inclination for sleep was now gone; however, with great self-command, she feigned it, closed her eyes, and even began to snore. On this the traveler got up, pulled out of his pocket a dead man's hand, fitted a candle to it, lighted the candle, and passed hand and candle several times before the servant girl's face, saying as he did so: "Let all those who are asleep be asleep, and let those who are awake be awake." This done, he placed the light on the table, opened the outer door, went down two or three of the steps which led from the house to the road, and began to whistle for his companions.

The girl (who had hitherto had presence of mind enough to remain perfectly quiet) now jumped up, rushed behind the ruffian, and pushed him down the steps. She then shut the door, locked it, and ran upstairs to try and wake the family, but without success: calling, shouting, and shaking were alike in vain. The poor girl was in despair, for she heard the traveler and his comrades outside the house. So she ran down again, and seized a bowl of blue (i.e., skimmed milk), and threw it over the hand and candle; after which she went upstairs again, and awoke the sleepers without any difficulty.



and more.....



On this the woman ran in, and, seizing the light, tried to extinguish the flames. But this was not so easy. She blew at them, but they burnt on as before. She poured the dregs of a beer jug over them, but they blazed up the brighter. As a last resource, she caught up a jug of milk, and dashed it over the four lambent flames, and they died out at once. Uttering a loud cry, she rushed to the door of the apartment the beggar had entered, and locked it. The whole family was aroused, and the thief easily secured and hanged.



the last two are taken from folk tales and hence dont say alot about actual belief surounding the hand. i think the first article draws to much from these but its interesting none the less. also id like to add that unlike alot of other myths and legends the hand of glory is genuine. there have been examples found around europe and to my knowledge they currently reside in museums.

its quite off topic i know but isnt the hand cool? am i contributing yet?  :grin:


   


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1790759 - 08/08/03 02:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe they listed whatever god or goddess they worshipped as "Satan" or "The Devil" is because according to Christianity, if you worship anything/god over Him, then it is worshipping Satan?


--------------------
AH HA....


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Witch Trials ... With a Twist. [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1791703 - 08/08/03 12:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

One benefit that has occurred through those labels, ie-Satan worshiping by witches,  is that they are now remembered... 

I once read an article concerning controvercial entertainers like Madonna and Manson.  In order to get their names better remebered, they employed shock techniques.  In that sense, there is no such thing as bad publicity.



Lazerouth,  great contribution !  A very interesting read indeed.  :thumbup:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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