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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Can a LEO order one to stop filming?
    #17786399 - 02/11/13 10:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Can a LEO legally order one to stop filming?

The minute that I see something that might be interesting, the first thing that I do is whip out my camera and start filming.

If a cop says, "stop filming," am I obligated to comply? Do I have any legal right to film in a public place?


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17786424 - 02/11/13 10:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Can a LEO legally order one to stop filming?

The minute that I see something that might be interesting, the first thing that I do is whip out my camera and start filming.

If a cop says, "stop filming," am I obligated to comply? Do I have any legal right to film in a public place?




In general you have a first amendment right to record public things as long as its not more intrusive than a normal person walking down the street would see.  Various states have wiretap/obstruction laws that cops will try to use harras you when they don't like the scrutiny they are recieving.

In general you should clarify with the officer if he is actually ordering you or is simply requesting you to stop filming.  If its an order you should comply and identify the officer and make a complaint later.  The problem comes in where the cop's ego is so raging he refuses to clarify his 'request' and just choke slams you anyways for daring to clarify his 'request'- kind of like the 'I'm going to take a look in your car, ok?' announcement that the cops will swear was a purely voluntary question rather than an announcement.

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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17786443 - 02/11/13 10:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Depends on the state. However, I bet you that if an officer wants you to stop recording that they're going to force you regardless and deal with the consequences later. Even where it's legal, it's doubtful that you'll sue (which takes a lot of time, money, and effort on your part), so they have little to lose. I'm no legal expert though, I bet enlil will chime in soon.

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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: nooneman]
    #17786632 - 02/11/13 11:15 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'm talking legally. 

Realistically, you'll get no argument from me that it would be downright foolish to refuse an order to stop filming from a LEO.


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (02/11/13 11:16 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17787182 - 02/12/13 01:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Can a LEO legally order one to stop filming?




Not in most states.  In a couple states it's felony wiretapping to film them.

In 48 states you are allowed to film an officer from a safe distance.

My friend was filming the Free Radio Austin raid a few years ago, and the US Marshals told him to stop filming.  He said "What are you going to do if I don't stop - arrest me?" and the US Marshalls said "Yes."  My friend said "I'll know that's true when you slap the handcuffs on me."  They didn't touch him and he continued to film.

Most cops won't illegally attack you when you are filming them.  They will generally just request that you back up so you aren't interfering with what they are doing.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17808829 - 02/15/13 05:49 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

It depends a lot on where it takes place. In a completely public place a citizen has no expectation of privacy and generally that applies to cops too. Wiretapping laws come into play when there is an expectation of privacy such as in a home, on a phone call, in some place like a private office where you might have limited expectation of privacy. That being said, cops can often come up with an excuse like you were obstructing an investigation, or the cop sometimes works under cover and does not want to be filmed. I'm not saying that makes the cop in the right but most of the time a cop will not push it since a complaint will often be made if he takes the camera or destroys it and if he doesn't, then there is a record of what went down. But if he wants to push it and beats you up, its your word against his since the camera is going to be fubar and you are arrested for resisting.

They don't like it but will be on their best behavior if they think they are being recorded. I say have a fake camera on you at all times and act like you are recording. Have one mounted in the car pointed toward the driver's side. You could "adjust" it as the cop comes up and he will be mr 'by the book' at that point onward, most likely.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17808852 - 02/15/13 05:54 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Wiretapping laws come into play when there is an expectation of privacy such as in a home, on a phone call, in some place like a private office where you might have limited expectation of privacy.




Except in Massachusetts and Illinois, where it is a felony to record the police even when they are in public.

Quote:

I say have a fake camera on you at all times and act like you are recording.




An old cell phone would work well for that.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17812072 - 02/16/13 08:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

>Except in Massachusetts and Illinois, where it is a felony to record the police even when they are in public.

Sounds unconstitutional to me. But i think the same about drone killings with no trial so what do i know?

>An old cell phone would work well for that.

Sure, and they make fake surveillance cameras for the home or car. They have a battery that makes a little red light go on.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17812132 - 02/16/13 08:47 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Most cops won't illegally attack you when they don't know you are filming them.




Corrected that for you. I work at a busy international airport and always start filming when interesting stuff is going on. 9 times out of 10 if a cop sees me filming, they'll tell me to stop and in some cases have tried to take my camera from me to erase the footage. I've seen a man tackled and arrested for "interfering with a police investigation" for refusing to stop filming at the scene of a traffic accident despite the fact he was recording the scene from a distance and not interfering with the police in any way. I asked the cops what he did wrong and the exact words I was told were "shut the fuck up and leave if you don't want to join him". Oddly enough, I didn't want to join him.

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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: FooMan]
    #17812856 - 02/16/13 11:55 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Most cops won't illegally attack you when they don't know you are filming them.




Corrected that for you. I work at a busy international airport and always start filming when interesting stuff is going on. 9 times out of 10 if a cop sees me filming, they'll tell me to stop and in some cases have tried to take my camera from me to erase the footage. I've seen a man tackled and arrested for "interfering with a police investigation" for refusing to stop filming at the scene of a traffic accident despite the fact he was recording the scene from a distance and not interfering with the police in any way. I asked the cops what he did wrong and the exact words I was told were "shut the fuck up and leave if you don't want to join him". Oddly enough, I didn't want to join him.



What a surprise... I thought that the officers would be more agreeable to being filmed!

"Excuse me... officer? ExCUUUSE MEE!!! Hey, uh, could you stop beating the shit out of that black guy for a minute so that I can set up my tripod? kthx."


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17812930 - 02/16/13 12:10 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If they don't like it, good. The best system is to have a buddy at a distance also recording everything. Then when they take your camera and destroy it and make up some lie, the other camera captures it all. Then comes the lawsuit and the cops have to face a discipline hearing, might even get fired.

Isn't there a way to stream your filming and send it to someplace to be recorded? Then you can do it all on your own. Good luck to the cops trying to intimidate the cloud into deleting a recording.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBassfreak
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17813106 - 02/16/13 01:05 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

you really only have to stop filming if he physically makes you stop, cuz usually if ur videotaping it then theres something else going on and your just a bystander

fuck the police, keep filming


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OfflineHumility
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 2
    #17813379 - 02/16/13 02:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Check out the Glick Decision.



This has been clarified time and time and time again.  At the end of the day cops are going to do what they want until they are held PERSONALLY responsible, meaning criminally and CIVILLY liable for infringing on the rights of another human being, including seizing their property, assaulting and battering them, and oftentimes destroying their property through either erasing or seizing data or destroying the video recording device outright.


It has been ruled FEDERALLY as in EVERYWHERE as in including Illinois and Chicago specifically that a public official "serving" the public, earning public monies, on the clock, on public property has ABSOLUTELY ZERO expectation of privacy.  The fact that cops in America are riding around and beating the shit out of people, destroying property, kidnapping people and trapping them in dungeons for using video recording devices in public is beyond outrageous - it's clear and blatant tyranny and oppression resulting from "officers" fearing being recorded while performing illegal, immoral or unprofessional acts.


To seize an individual's camera while they're out recording in public is a clear and blatant violation of the first amendment.  That said, the cops can, have, and will do it.  If you're going to film use a live-stream program like Qik that prevents anyone from "seizing" anything -

"This encounter is being recorded live and uploaded to the internet second by second.  I understand that you want me to stop filming but I am located X feet away from you on a public street and have no intention of interfering with you or obstructing you from doing what you're doing.  If you arrest or assault me, it will be captured on camera and that footage will be publicly available on youtube."


I also HIGHLY agree with stonehenge's recommendation that an uninvolved partner be present if possible (and located some distance away) to capture to events on a separate recording device.  Multiple recording angles can make for great video by putting together clips and the backup makes things a lot easier.




The Glick decision is an AFFIRMATION, a clarification of already existing federal law which protects recording on a public street constitutionally protected behavior.  If I can see it, I can record it.


That said, don't be surprised if you get charged with 50+ years worth of wiretapping charges and have to put your life on hold for years to fight the case and wind up spending 3-10 thousand dollars to get a lawyer that half way gives a shit and will actually defend you in a worthwhile manner.




When recording, always be doing it out in the open and NEVER do it clandestinely.  That's an easy way to be charged with wiretapping.

Check the laws in your tyrannical shithole of a state before making decisions.  Make sure everything is recorded, the cops will lie.


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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Humility]
    #17813593 - 02/16/13 02:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If we can't even get the president to obey the law or the constitution then how are we going to get the pigs on the street to do it? Seems like a camera with remote stream is stronger than an expensive lawyer.

>That said, don't be surprised if you get charged with 50+ years worth of wiretapping charges and have to put your life on hold for years to fight the case and wind up spending 3-10 thousand dollars to get a lawyer that half way gives a shit and will actually defend you in a worthwhile manner.

If you win you can sue for major damages, get back all your costs plus extra. What does the qik service cost?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Humility]
    #17814602 - 02/16/13 05:58 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Actually it's "Glik", but it isn't a Supreme Court decision and it isn't binding all over the country.  There are several circuits that have come to the conclusion that the first amendment protects the right to record officers in the public.

Having said that, if you're not in the 1st, 9th or 11th circuit, I'd be very careful.  You might have an uphill battle on your hands.  I'm confident that if it went to the SCOTUS, they would uphold the right, but whether or not a particular case is going to get that far is another question altogether.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Enlil]
    #17814776 - 02/16/13 06:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

Having said that, if you're not in the 1st, 9th or 11th circuit, I'd be very careful.  You might have an uphill battle on your hands.  I'm confident that if it went to the SCOTUS, they would uphold the right, but whether or not a particular case is going to get that far is another question altogether.





The other problem is cops destroying the video and/or lieing about what happened off camera.  This can easily moot the question of whether you had the initial right to film.  All of the sudden your get your wiretap/obstruction charge dismissed but are charged with assaulting an officer, menacing, or disorderly conduct.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: johnm214]
    #17814930 - 02/16/13 07:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

All of that is far less likely, of course...it's one thing for a cop to go too far.  It's another thing altogether for them to simply manufacture charges.  Not nearly as many cops would be willing to go that far...particularly if they can't be sure that they got the recording erased.


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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #17815052 - 02/16/13 07:22 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that is far less likely, of course...it's one thing for a cop to go too far.  It's another thing altogether for them to simply manufacture charges.  Not nearly as many cops would be willing to go that far...particularly if they can't be sure that they got the recording erased.





Yep, but it happens and is something to consider when confronting what you believe to be an illegal order.  Its often better to comply and file a complaint later rather than to risk being tackled and charged with assaulting an officer.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: johnm214]
    #17817838 - 02/17/13 09:43 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

>Yep, but it happens and is something to consider when confronting what you believe to be an illegal order.  Its often better to comply and file a complaint later rather than to risk being tackled and charged with assaulting an officer.

John, i have to agree with you. No amount of money is going to make up for serious injuries you may suffer and you may get no compensation. Plus dealing with legal charges.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Can a LEO order one to stop filming? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17835839 - 02/20/13 01:01 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

In the UK it's legal to film in a public place but if the police want to they can force you to stop by using BS laws such as Anti-terrorism.

I'd imagine it to be similar in the US.  Technically you should be allowed to film a police officer incase their is an injustice but they can find a way to pin you for something so won't be worth the hassle.  Just be very discrete about it.

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