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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781190 - 02/11/13 12:39 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll add this: The argument from utility, which you have just used, is almost an admission that "god" doesn't exist. If there was any evidence for god, you would be pointing to it - not trying to convince me of the usefulness of belief in god.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781196 - 02/11/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 1
#17781197 - 02/11/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Phoenician said: I would define God as everything, yes, but that this everything has an inherent personal characteristic. Hence "God" not "the universe" or whatever. God being the universe and everything that exists beyond it. Would the universe exist if there were nothing to perceive it? If yes then who would be asking the question? I believe the experience of God exists as a unitive state between subject and object. Why God is not rational is because the rational mind cannot comprehend it. A subsystem cannot comprehend that which is meta to it.
If we can't comprehend it, then why do think it exists?
For any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.
Some extrapolation required.
--------------------
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#17781198 - 02/11/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I certainly don't pray, if that's what you're getting at. If I am afraid, something is wrong, and if something is wrong well... wasting time praying isn't doing any fucking good for anyone involved. Ain't nobody got time for that.
If I'm afraid, I pick apart why and what's causing it, and make the situation less daunting. If not, I accept there's nothing more I can do. And then I pee my pans. I realise that ration thought process isn't for everyone, however.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez] 2
#17781213 - 02/11/13 12:44 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
Viewpoints change all the time. It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Quote:
sVs said: I certainly don't pray, if that's what you're getting at. If I am afraid, something is wrong, and if something is wrong well... wasting time praying isn't doing any fucking good for anyone involved. Ain't nobody got time for that. .
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781230 - 02/11/13 12:48 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
cez said: I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
Viewpoints change all the time. It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.
You seem grounded in your argument to the point were you just wanna have a big reply count. I predict no words argued against you in this post is gonna shift your perspective. Maybe in time life experiences will, but not this post.
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lessismore

Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 1
#17781234 - 02/11/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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After tripping a bit I came to realize that any animal has a conciousness/soul as great as ours, they usually have their own language too and can learn/recognize things.
Any animal, even some insects
But if it was a delusion I am trying to find out  It doesn't feel like a delusion by looking at my birds or birds outside they can talk to each other, call on each other, solve problems/obstructions/make tools, they're social, they can recognize people/objects from far away and remember them for a very long time, when one flies the other one does as well (just to fly around without sitting anywhere)
I just would never have imagined birds could be that clever, but I have since realized that any animal I see is behaving that cleverly now, dogs, birds outside, bees,ants ,... (I just never noticed before)
Anyway, I don't think it is unlikely there is a greater reality than this one, but most people are not able to perceive it in ordinary state of conciousness, they need to go into trance. If there is a greater reality maybe there is life after death/a creator/other dimensions etc.
How I feel 'god' is in every living thing, when I see an animal I see a being with a conciousness as great as ours; when I see a plant or a hand or a person I see the 'perfection' (even though it has obvious flaws in the DNA all the time, the perfection is larger than the imperfection in every human) - I don't believe in death (from experience with OBE's(lucid dreaming) and trips), and have seen a greater reality when tripping once (and in lucid dreaming).
When a bird the size of my hand is as clever as a small child of age 4-5 I don't think the conciousness is in its head. Ants and bees are social/pretty clever too if you look at them, even fruit flies have a memory/can learn things (scientifically proven they have a short term memory, they use them in experiments).
I don't want to say this is an explanation for anything, but once you see the 'greater reality' for yourself and meet god or whatever it was, you don't need proof anymore, you can feel it 
(I used to be atheist before tripping, but not anymore - I believe there is a creator due to the perfection I see in every living thing)
I don't believe in a specific god, I think they were all right (Budda,Jesus,Mohammed etc.), but I think there is a creator and I respect other viewpoints 
I have since tripping gotten a connection to people,animals,nature that I can only describe as a spiritual connection of some sort, it is so weird that I can't put words to it
Edited by lessismore (02/11/13 01:06 AM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
#17781240 - 02/11/13 12:51 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
cez said: I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
Viewpoints change all the time. It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.
You seem grounded in your argument to the point were you just wanna have a big reply count. I predict no words argued against you in this post is gonna shift your perspective. Maybe in time life experiences will, but not this post.
I thought you were leaving?
Either leave or argue, but please stop making a big show of stamping your feet in the doorway- nobody cares.
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#17781250 - 02/11/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
cez said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
cez said: I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
Viewpoints change all the time. It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.
You seem grounded in your argument to the point were you just wanna have a big reply count. I predict no words argued against you in this post is gonna shift your perspective. Maybe in time life experiences will, but not this post.
I thought you were leaving?
Either leave or argue, but please stop making a big show of stamping your feet in the doorway- nobody cares.

Kinda like your opinion in this matter. Message me when you convert op to a different belief.
/
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
#17781251 - 02/11/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: You seem grounded in your argument to the point were you just wanna have a big reply count. I predict no words argued against you in this post is gonna shift your perspective. Maybe in time life experiences will, but not this post.
Seeing as I'm a skeptical person in general, I don't think my position on this will ever change. If one day I decide to believe in a "god" for which there is no evidence, I might as well also believe in astrology, or that elvis has come back from the dead.
And yes, I'm grounded in my argument because it's a logical one. But I'll change my position in a heartbeat if you can show me evidence for "god" (not sure what that evidence might look like)
I'm not being stubborn in my beliefs. I just have no reason to believe in things without evidence.
And no, I don't care about the reply count. But If I can convince someone that they shouldn't believe things without evidence, then I'm happy with that. If that requires a high reply count, so be it.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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lessismore

Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781272 - 02/11/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Try 5g shrooms alone in silent darkness and lay and relax
not sure if you have tried 
can't imagine it not making anyone view life differently
suddenly there being greater dimensions doesn't sound so unlikely after such a trip
(string theory predicts at least 11 dimensions , wonder where they got that idea, it seemed crazy before I tripped but now it sounds plausible)
if you can somehow get to an egodeath experience (not sure if you have tried), you will view everything differently likely, including death,birth,your life/past lives/people you know/nature/animals etc. shrooms egodeath is just so quick, acid is better for realizing what happened I think (have tried on both)
egodeath is pretty hard to get, except with shrooms
Edited by lessismore (02/11/13 01:15 AM)
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something super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore] 2
#17781275 - 02/11/13 01:12 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've tripped plenty of times and I don't confuse chemically-induced euphoria for spiritual revelation.
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lessismore

Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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the closed mind only sees what it wants to see, or hear 
so I guess we may never get an answer 
set,setting,dose is important with psychedelics
if you go into the trip wanting to get 'high' or trip with friends or believe it is just a chemical that is how it is going to be, I would rather let go and don't expect anything
alone in silent darkness was the only thing that worked for me, and huge doses (the small ones didn't do much)
the only thing that really changed my outlook on everything was egodeath, which took me 150 LSD sessions to get to I basically was reborn 2-3 times that night, and the world changed afterwards, it was new I saw my life/past lives and more, very hard to explain
the revalation isn't really the trip, it is after the trip, if you cannot process the trip itself it is worth nothing, you have to be ready in life for it IMO I used to have lots of OBE's when I was a kid and for many years, so I guess I was a little less prone to the idea that this is the only reality with an OBE you basically levitate towards the ceiling and can see yourself from above, fly around, meet beings/people, do anything you want and it feels 100% real - you think it is real to begin with
so that made me question what is real a bit, lucid dreams are better than any psychedelic trip in my experience (but can also be as terrifying as the worst bad trip)
Edited by lessismore (02/11/13 01:24 AM)
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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore]
#17781289 - 02/11/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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You make many baseless assumptions and provide no substantiation. You'll certainly not be changing my opinion anytime soon.
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usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781386 - 02/11/13 02:14 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: I'll add this: The argument from utility, which you have just used, is almost an admission that "god" doesn't exist. If there was any evidence for god, you would be pointing to it - not trying to convince me of the usefulness of belief in god.
I am not arguing anything. Just want to know what goes on for a true atheist when they have allot of fear. I'd like to be an atheist, but then I find myself praying. Then when I pray I don't really believe that what ever I pray to actually exists anyway. Atheism does not seem rational to me when I start praying. It is now just a better response than frantic thought loops. Affirmations really don't work for me either.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17781778 - 02/11/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: I'm not trying to be confrontational. That's just my honest opinion.
I hear that. Still I'll choose agnosticism. Here's my limited reasoning. "God" is defined in many ways so god doesn't just mean a guy up in the sky. Considering how many ways you can define the word there might be a possibility that one of them is correct. Secondly I have to acknowledge that I have a very limited understanding of reality, creation, cosmos, tao, ect. I know so little about what is actually out there it's going to be very difficult to guess about it. I'd rather acknowledge that I just don't have a fucking clue and then I can relax and go about my business. I have nothing much to defend or explain.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#17782193 - 02/11/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
usulpsychonaut said: Then when I pray I don't really believe that what ever I pray to actually exists anyway.
So you're an atheist.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#17782210 - 02/11/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I hear that. Still I'll choose agnosticism. Here's my limited reasoning. "God" is defined in many ways so god doesn't just mean a guy up in the sky. Considering how many ways you can define the word there might be a possibility that one of them is correct. Secondly I have to acknowledge that I have a very limited understanding of reality, creation, cosmos, tao, ect. I know so little about what is actually out there it's going to be very difficult to guess about it. I'd rather acknowledge that I just don't have a fucking clue and then I can relax and go about my business. I have nothing much to defend or explain.
You should read the follow up posts, I addressed all of these issues directly.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Godel Escher Bach
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17782423 - 02/11/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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From my point of view, Atheism, theism, agnosticism, all completely bizarre ways to think.
Ignosticism is the word they have given for my 'beliefs'. I believe the wikipedia page has a decent amount of information about this stance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
Most often my conversations around this matter go like this:
Theist: Do you believe in god? Me: What do you mean by god? Theist: Uhh... don't you know? Me: No, I have no idea what you mean by god Theist: Well I mean GOD ofcourse, duh...? Me: What is a god? Theist: He is the Creator Me: Creator of what? Theist: Everything. Me: So you're asking me wether I believe we were created or not? Theist: No I ask wether you believe in God or not. Me: ... Me: .. Me: . Theist: God bless you.
So in my mind, atheism is just a stance that states "I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about but I don't believe it because I assume you're talking about this concept believe doesn't exist."
Foolish, in other words.
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