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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#18388758 - 06/08/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Bugs walk right by us, and to them, we are no different from any other phenomena in their environment.
This is a specious analogy.
Bugs do not compare to humans in this context because bugs do not contemplate their own existence or the nature of reality and their place in it. We are an order higher, and the mere fact of this debate taking place and that we are aware that there may be things beyond us the same way we are beyond bugs puts us in an entirely different category.
Now, I never say never and so I tacitly agree that there may indeed be things so beyond us that they defy our contemplation, but does this very sentence itself not negate that possibility as it is itself contemplating the un-contemplatable?
We are not bugs. Not by a long shot.
But I'll squash you like one if you fuck with me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18388765 - 06/08/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am the windshield!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18388979 - 06/08/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dark_Star said: Remember that at point in time the world was believed to be flat. No one had evidence that said otherwise, and one would be ridiculed for saying that the earth was round. Yet the earth is round. When I was young I was an atheist. Then after I discovered psychedelia I became a believer in greater forces. Now I don't know what I believe, except that I really have no clue, and also that it's OK to live through life not knowing.
You can apply that same logic to anything - the tooth fairy, bigfoot, etc. And it's true, I can't know for sure if bigfoot exists or not. But it's not worth my time to think about it until bigfoot actually appears in the real world. I also don't know that there's not a god. Every atheist I've met has the same view.
This goes for anything. If I "don't know" if it exists, then I don't believe in it. That's why agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:
I should also mention that I've had personal experiences (including sober ones) that are evidence on a personal level that there is something there. That's not scientific, but I experienced it, so it's real to me. I still withhold judgement on the matter though. I'm just a guy on a rock zipping through space.
It's fine to have personal or spiritual experiences that you can't explain. But that's not evidence in the real world of some creator of the universe.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18389369 - 06/08/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did you read my post? I specifically said that I withhold judgement on the matter despite having those experiences.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18389378 - 06/08/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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agnosticism is the only rational position
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389381 - 06/08/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hierophant said: agnosticism is the only rational position
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18389678 - 06/08/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dark_Star said: Did you read my post? I specifically said that I withhold judgement on the matter despite having those experiences.
Well my point is that I withhold judgement as well. And so I don't "believe in god". Someone who doesn't believe in god is an atheist. But I was just trying to respond to every part of your post. I'm actually more interested in the first part.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389697 - 06/08/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hierophant said: agnosticism is the only rational position
How is agnosticism any different than atheism, as it's understood today?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (06/08/13 08:44 PM)
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18389720 - 06/08/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Hierophant said: agnosticism is the only rational position
How is agnosticism any different than atheism, as it's understood today?
how is agnosticism understood today? I wasnt aware the stance had altered in any way.
Ive always understood agnosticism as reserving participation in belief or disbelief until experiential truth is revealed to oneself.
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389726 - 06/08/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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... and even then its best to remain skeptical
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389746 - 06/08/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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I meant as atheism is understood these days - almost all self-proclaimed atheists are agnostic as well.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18389767 - 06/08/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: I meant as atheism is understood these days - almost all self-proclaimed atheists are agnostic as well.
i wasnt aware that atheists considered themselves agnostic... one contradicts the other at least as I understand it.
i was under the impression that atheists held a disbelief in god or a spiritual reality whereas agnostics reserve their opinion until revelation occurs
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389787 - 06/08/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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i understand what you mean though, theism is the belief in a "divinity" atheism is the disbelief in a "divinity"
gnosis is the experienced knowledge of a "divinity" an agnostic is one who has had no such experience and therefore is uncertain but open to whatever possibility presents itself as a manifest reality
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18389791 - 06/08/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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perhaps atheist agnostics hold to disbelief until an experience of divine revelation occurs
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18390277 - 06/08/13 10:54 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hierophant said: i was under the impression that atheists held a disbelief in god or a spiritual reality whereas agnostics reserve their opinion until revelation occurs
This is a misconception. For me, god is something that I don't think about (except in debates like this). So, does not thinking about something equal "disbelief"? What about someone who grows up never hearing of the concept of god? Does this person have a "disbelief" in something they have never heard of?
As an atheist, I have never had a "disbelief" in "god," as I'm not sure what that would entail - what "god" would I even disbelieve in?
So as far as I'm concerned, we might as well be talking about my "disbelief" in the tooth fairy, or leprechauns.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (06/08/13 10:55 PM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Hierophant]
#18390546 - 06/08/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hierophant said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: I meant as atheism is understood these days - almost all self-proclaimed atheists are agnostic as well.
i wasnt aware that atheists considered themselves agnostic... one contradicts the other at least as I understand it.
No, they denote two different things- read the thread.
Quote:
i was under the impression that atheists held a disbelief in god or a spiritual reality whereas agnostics reserve their opinion until revelation occurs
This is correct- so what's the confusion? Disbelief does not entail believing in absense, it entails not believing/rejecting the claims. Agnostics of the most common sort are also atheists.
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#18390900 - 06/09/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Hierophant said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: I meant as atheism is understood these days - almost all self-proclaimed atheists are agnostic as well.
i wasnt aware that atheists considered themselves agnostic... one contradicts the other at least as I understand it.
No, they denote two different things- read the thread.
Quote:
i was under the impression that atheists held a disbelief in god or a spiritual reality whereas agnostics reserve their opinion until revelation occurs
This is correct- so what's the confusion? Disbelief does not entail believing in absense, it entails not believing/rejecting the claims. Agnostics of the most common sort are also atheists.
This guy has it right.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I am the windshield!
What is the last thing that goes through a bug's mind when it hits the windshield of your car?
. . . . . .
It's ass.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 942
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18392023 - 06/09/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Hierophant said: i was under the impression that atheists held a disbelief in god or a spiritual reality whereas agnostics reserve their opinion until revelation occurs
This is a misconception. For me, god is something that I don't think about (except in debates like this). So, does not thinking about something equal "disbelief"? What about someone who grows up never hearing of the concept of god? Does this person have a "disbelief" in something they have never heard of?
As an atheist, I have never had a "disbelief" in "god," as I'm not sure what that would entail - what "god" would I even disbelieve in?
So as far as I'm concerned, we might as well be talking about my "disbelief" in the tooth fairy, or leprechauns.
i used the term "god" but also "spiritual reality" whether one perceives that in the form of a deity or force or energy whatever... like I said I was under the impression that atheists held to a disbelief until proof is established, contrast this position to one of a person who neither believes nor disbelieves but remains open to whatever possibility exists... that is how I understand the difference between atheism and agnosticism
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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