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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18378875 - 06/06/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well it has nothing to do with science from what I can see. Still I think a case can be made for some knee jerk responses from some supposed proponents of the scientific method. They just don't know what they're talking about like many others. 
Agreed, there are valid ways to decry 'scientism'- namely when you claim something is true because it is believed by scientists or something, but in this forum you generally see 'scientism' claimed whenever someone claims science disproves a poster's claim.
It becomes an epithet for science itself rather than the doctrinaire nonscientific worship of science that the term should denote.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#18379715 - 06/06/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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In the end we don't have a clear definition of what is real
Real is our culture (culture defines what we accept as real)
So science applies for our culture (modern western consumer culture)
In other cultures mysticism applies (eastern culture)
So in some cultures jesus exists and in others he doesn't 
Culture is our operating system like mckenna says, I think that is a good view on it Chose your reality yourself, scientific view, religious view, western view, eastern view, buddhist view, hippie view
You can never say what is universally true, only true for your culture 
Nobody is free from culture, not even scientists
We think we know everything, but we don't know the most basic building block of reality (consciousness) How can we measure when we trust our senses? (that is a popular philosophical question) Can we know anything for certain?
Our senses lie to us all the time Empirical evidence is based on senses
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore]
#18379733 - 06/06/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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And the reason senses lie are because they're linked with perception I think
We don't see with our eyes, but with our minds
We don't hear with our ears etc. (but with our minds)
But haven't dwelved too deeply into the question.. somebody probably has something interesting to say on this
As a lucid dreamer I always question reality, also this 'reality' science calls real
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore]
#18379936 - 06/06/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: In the end we don't have a clear definition of what is real
Real is our culture (culture defines what we accept as real)
So science applies for our culture (modern western consumer culture)
In other cultures mysticism applies (eastern culture)
So in some cultures jesus exists and in others he doesn't 
Culture is our operating system like mckenna says, I think that is a good view on it Chose your reality yourself, scientific view, religious view, western view, eastern view, buddhist view, hippie view
You can never say what is universally true, only true for your culture 
Nobody is free from culture, not even scientists
We think we know everything, but we don't know the most basic building block of reality (consciousness) How can we measure when we trust our senses? (that is a popular philosophical question) Can we know anything for certain?
Our senses lie to us all the time Empirical evidence is based on senses
You can wax poetic about what is reality all you want but at the end of the day I doubt you would be willing to let someone smash your head with a jagged rock.
You wouldn't be willing to jump off a skyscraper.
You wouldn't give all your money away.
Because THERE IS an unbiased reality devoid of you and your beliefs or mine.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18381222 - 06/07/13 12:32 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just the title of this thread makes me
But I guess it being such a hot topic serves as sort of reflection of the collective mindset.
Atheism in itself will one day be obsolete (and in my opinion is as utterly useless and unnecessary as theistic beliefs) as I doubt that our understanding of the nature of the universe will stay deeply imbedded in the model(s) of thinking that theism and atheism spring from.
Atheism is reliant on and springs from which it is the anti-thesis of.
It also fails to take into account the plethora of ideological systems that don’t approach understanding the universe from the point of view in which it challenges. There is nothing ‘most rational’ about that, this 'rationality' is circumstantial at best.
Atheism too will die and fade into obscurity like every other person and idea on this planet whether they buy into it under the guise that they are reaching some sort of intellectual peak or not.
Whatever delusion floats your boat.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18381250 - 06/07/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: Just the title of this thread makes me
But I guess it being such a hot topic serves as sort of reflection of the collective mindset.
Atheism in itself will one day be obsolete (and in my opinion is as utterly useless and unnecessary as theistic beliefs) as I doubt that our understanding of the nature of the universe will stay deeply imbedded in the model(s) of thinking that theism and atheism spring from.
Atheism is reliant on and springs from which it is the anti-thesis of.
It also fails to take into account the plethora of ideological systems that don’t approach understanding the universe from the point of view in which it challenges. There is nothing ‘most rational’ about that, this 'rationality' is circumstantial at best.
Atheism too will die and fade into obscurity like every other person and idea on this planet whether they buy into it under the guise that they are reaching some sort of intellectual peak or not.
Whatever delusion floats your boat. 
I agree.
The only reason why people have to identify themselves as Atheist is because a huge percentage of people still believe in the supernatural and in particular still believe in religion.
So I agree, maybe in the future everyone will wake up and we won't have keep saying "We are Atheist" because it will be on default.
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#18382371 - 06/07/13 09:58 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Atheism is no more rational or irrational than any religion. At the basic level it's still making a claim with no proof....just the opposite claim as religion. Agnosticism is really the more rational option.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18382678 - 06/07/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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IMO it doesn't make any claims other than to not believe in something for which there isn't reasonable evidence. It does not claim there is no god.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18382710 - 06/07/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Quote:
Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.[1][2][3] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.[2] In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18383317 - 06/07/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: Just the title of this thread makes me
But I guess it being such a hot topic serves as sort of reflection of the collective mindset.
Atheism in itself will one day be obsolete (and in my opinion is as utterly useless and unnecessary as theistic beliefs) as I doubt that our understanding of the nature of the universe will stay deeply imbedded in the model(s) of thinking that theism and atheism spring from.
Atheism is reliant on and springs from which it is the anti-thesis of.
It also fails to take into account the plethora of ideological systems that don’t approach understanding the universe from the point of view in which it challenges. There is nothing ‘most rational’ about that, this 'rationality' is circumstantial at best.
Atheism too will die and fade into obscurity like every other person and idea on this planet whether they buy into it under the guise that they are reaching some sort of intellectual peak or not.
Whatever delusion floats your boat. 
I agree with much of what you say - that "atheism" is ultimately a word that shouldn't need to exist. The concept of lacking the belief in god will die out when belief in god dies out.
Quote:
It also fails to take into account the plethora of ideological systems that don’t approach understanding the universe from the point of view in which it challenges. There is nothing ‘most rational’ about that, this 'rationality' is circumstantial at best.
But atheism isn't meant to oppose ideological systems that don't have anything to do with god.
It only addressed the issue of god.
Imagine if you lived in a world where everyone around you believed in the tooth fairy. You might want a word to differentiate yourself from everyone else.
In the future, no one will call themselves an atheist, just like nobody these days calls themselves an "abolitionist." (even though most people would agree with what abolitionists did).
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position *DELETED* [Re: Dark_Star]
#18383329 - 06/07/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by clam_dudeReason for deletion: double post
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 1
#18383339 - 06/07/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dark_Star said: Atheism is no more rational or irrational than any religion. At the basic level it's still making a claim with no proof....just the opposite claim as religion. Agnosticism is really the more rational option.
Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. I think I've said that 1000 times in this thread, and in the first post.
And actually, atheism isn't making a claim. What claim is it making? That there is no god? How could anyone make that claim?
The definitions of atheism you gave include this one: "Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist." You can decide to choose a different definition if you like, but the truth is that almost every atheist today goes with this definition.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (06/07/13 02:06 PM)
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18383416 - 06/07/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dark_Star said: Atheism is no more rational or irrational than any religion. At the basic level it's still making a claim with no proof....just the opposite claim as religion. Agnosticism is really the more rational option.
It's a common misconception. Atheism by itself only rejects the claim that a deity does exist. Anything further than that you start to go into more intricacy and individual beliefs. For example positive Atheism asserts that gods don't exist at all.
Also the terms Agnostic and Gnostic refer to knowledge where as Theist and Atheist refer to belief. So one can be both Atheist and Agnostic.
Theism: I believe a deity exists.
Atheism: I do not believe a deity exists.
Gnostic: I know a deity exists.
Agnostic: I don't know if a deity exists.
Agnostic-Atheism: I don't believe that a deity exists, but I really don't know for sure.
It's logical to not believe something exist because of lack of evidence.
It is illogical to believe something that lacks evidence.
Doesn't matter if it is true or not to the first circumstance. If you come up to me and say that unicorns exists, my default position is to NOT believe you until you have evidence. At this point I do not know if you are telling the truth or not, but I cannot believe you. I cannot give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore I do not believe that Unicorns exist. Once you present that evidence then I can believe and know that unicorns exists.
If a person comes up to you and says that unicorns exists and you BELIEVE them right away then you are just gullible.
Now there is a sect of Atheism that does reject the existence of any god and that's called positive or hard Atheism. I a made the distinction a few posts ago that OP probably meant soft or negative atheism.
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#18386982 - 06/08/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is no more evidence that God doesn't exist than there is that such an entity does exist. Therefore I stand by my position that atheism is no more rational than religion. Furthermore, I've come across just as many atheists that claim that there is no God, and are pushy about it, as I've come across pushy Christians.
Science has not disproved the existence of God, nor has it proved the existence of it. Therefore the truly rational route would be to simply acknowledge that we don't know.
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OZA
When the going gets weird.....



Registered: 03/29/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Dark_Star]
#18386992 - 06/08/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree that a pushy atheist is hardly better than a pushy christian. I don't understand your first sentence though. How could there be evidence that god doesn't exist? Lack of sufficient evidence that an entity does exist should do that for you...
-------------------- Since everything is but an illusion, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one might as well burst out laughing! - Longchenpa
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: OZA]
#18387131 - 06/08/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lack of evidence doesn't do it either. Perhaps it's there, but we haven't found it yet. Remember that at point in time the world was believed to be flat. No one had evidence that said otherwise, and one would be ridiculed for saying that the earth was round. Yet the earth is round. When I was young I was an atheist. Then after I discovered psychedelia I became a believer in greater forces. Now I don't know what I believe, except that I really have no clue, and also that it's OK to live through life not knowing.
I should also mention that I've had personal experiences (including sober ones) that are evidence on a personal level that there is something there. That's not scientific, but I experienced it, so it's real to me. I still withhold judgement on the matter though. I'm just a guy on a rock zipping through space.
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Edited by Dark_Star (06/08/13 10:11 AM)
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Space Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 908
Last seen: 6 years, 12 days
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: OZA]
#18387136 - 06/08/13 10:01 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm going to interject here again. I don't know about "God", but surely you all must be aware that there is a great deal of phenomena going on all around you at all times in the whole of existence of which you all have no awareness, at all? Bugs walk right by us, and to them, we are no different from any other phenomena in their environment. Their cognitive systems are too primitive to even begin to comprehend what we as human beings are. Well, increase the scale only a little, and we become as ignorant as those bugs. Speculating about God is just a joke in the end, we know nothing but what we immediately comprehend, and we don't even really know a whole lot about that either.
I wrote something down the other day. 5 points of my belief. - I believe in a divine Logos, or reason, which characterizes the universe - I believe that the freedom to deviate from this Logos characterizes its divinity - I believe we can interpret how we ought to regulate ourselves by this Logos - I believe we need laws that can best reflect this Logos - I do not believe society's laws always reflect the will of this Logos
Edited by Space Monkey (06/08/13 10:03 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Space Monkey]
#18387157 - 06/08/13 10:09 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Bugs walk right by us, and to them, we are no different from any other phenomena in their environment.
This is a specious analogy.
Bugs do not compare to humans in this context because bugs do not contemplate their own existence or the nature of reality and their place in it. We are an order higher, and the mere fact of this debate taking place and that we are aware that there may be things beyond us the same way we are beyond bugs puts us in an entirely different category.
Now, I never say never and so I tacitly agree that there may indeed be things so beyond us that they defy our contemplation, but does this very sentence itself not negate that possibility as it is itself contemplating the un-contemplatable?
We are not bugs. Not by a long shot.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Space Monkey]
#18387160 - 06/08/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm going to interject here again. I don't know about "God", but surely you all must be aware that there is a great deal of phenomena going on all around you at all times in the whole of existence of which you all have no awareness, at all? Bugs walk right by us, and to them, we are no different from any other phenomena in their environment. Their cognitive systems are too primitive to even begin to comprehend what we as human beings are. Well, increase the scale only a little, and we become as ignorant as those bugs. Speculating about God is just a joke in the end, we know nothing but what we immediately comprehend, and we don't even really know a whole lot about that either.
IMO if everyone here could keep this in mind the level of discussion/debate would go through the roof.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Space Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 908
Last seen: 6 years, 12 days
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#18387966 - 06/08/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's pretty short sighted, Diploid. I said increase the scale. Intelligence doesn't stop at human capacity, logically intelligence may continue to increase infinitely. Increase the scale only a little, and soon we're not so far from bugs anymore. I know, this is like saying "look at the stars, suddenly we're not close from the sun now!", but really, it is true. We are very small, and we cooked up a notion of "the biggest of the big", and we're debating it. But we are so small, how could we ever look at this "biggest of the big", this "God"? We can't, the closest you'll come is Descartes, and that always lets people down.
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