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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,826
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18200038 - 05/01/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is that why we have 93 pages?
Oops make that 94
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
Edited by Cactilove (05/01/13 10:50 PM)
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Cactilove]
#18200045 - 05/01/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cactilove said: Is that why we have 93 pages?
Oops make that 94
That's an argument? What have you concluded throughout this ordeal? Anything of use?
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,826
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18200079 - 05/01/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is it an argument? How so?
All I know is this topic will never be settled objectively. EVER.
Or at least there is no evidence for to support that it will...
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
Edited by Cactilove (05/01/13 11:01 PM)
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Cactilove]
#18200103 - 05/01/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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You thought i was just playing meta, when I was playing meta meta game!
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,826
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18200123 - 05/01/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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liquidlounge


Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18222945 - 05/06/13 03:23 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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You know for mathematics and such.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: liquidlounge]
#18365866 - 06/04/13 01:38 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Some clarification:
Theist: I believe a god or gods exist.
Atheist: I do not believe a god or gods exist.
Gnostic: I know that a god or gods exist.
Agnostic: I do not know that a god or gods exist.
The proposed argument:
Atheism is the only rational position.
What OP probably meant was:
Soft Atheism, or Agnostic Atheism is the only rational position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
Which means: He does not believe a god or gods exist, but he does not know.
Why he is right when he says it's the only "rational" position:
Rational according to dictionary.com
ra·tion·al [rash-uh-nl, rash-nl] adjective
1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development. 2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator. 3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational. 4. endowed with the faculty of reason: rational beings. 5. of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers: the rational faculty.
To avoid religious or non-religious bias we have to create secular hypothetical scenarios.
Scenario 1: Someone claims that the loch ness monster exists, but provides nothing more.
2 options
A. I believe them.
B. I do not believe them.
Option A. is akin to Theism. B. is akin to Atheism.
The person who chooses option A. has chosen to believe the claim without any evidence. The person who chooses option B. has chosen not to believe because of lack of evidence.
2 further options
A. I know loch ness monster exists.
B. I do not know loch ness monster exists or not.
Option A. is similar to Gnosticism. Option B. is similar to Agnosticism.
The person who chooses option A has chosen to say he or she knows only because of the original claim and claimer.
The person who chooses option B acknowledges that he or she has not investigated for themselves. They have not scoured the depths of the oceans.
Edited by GilbertC06 (06/04/13 02:50 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#18365947 - 06/04/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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But there is something missing from that list. For example the mindset you claim to "know that god and gods exist" is the Gnostic. You mean as in Gnosticism---which looks at Nature and the body as traps of a 'divine spark'?
But what about Indigenous peoples, many of whom are animistic and who see nature as sacred and that there are nature spirits and gods?
Edited by zzripz (06/04/13 02:16 AM)
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
#18365997 - 06/04/13 02:39 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: But there is something missing from that list. For example the mindset you claim to "know that god and gods exist" is the Gnostic. You mean as in Gnosticism---which looks at Nature and the body as traps of a 'divine spark'?
But what about Indigenous peoples, many of whom are animistic and who see nature as sacred and that there are nature spirits and gods?
It's very questionable whether or not animists even believe in a god or gods. As far as I know they simply believe that everything has a spirit/soul.
Even then all you have to do is:
A person claims that an object has a spirit.
That person would then have to define what a spirit is and prove that they actually exist.
Before then, the rational position would be not to believe the person.
Edited by GilbertC06 (06/04/13 02:39 AM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#18366895 - 06/04/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well this is the first time I've been on this forum in a month (was out of town) - I can't believe this thread is still going. Must be the....debate that doesn't end, it just goes on and on my friend. Some people, started believing it not knowing what it was. And they'll continue believing it forever just because.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18366995 - 06/04/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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The problem is everybody has different definitions of God. A different version.
That's why this thread is completely pointless and the majority eat these kind of threads up.
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#18367056 - 06/04/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quest_ions said: The problem is everybody has different definitions of God. A different version.
That's why this thread is completely pointless and the majority eat these kind of threads up.
You obviously haven't read many of the posts. We spent a great deal of time discussing the definitions of god. Actually, there's a paragraph about that in my first post.
It's not up to me to define something I don't even believe in. You tell me your definition of god and i'll tell you why it's not rational to believe in it, or why it's a bad use of the word "god".
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18367210 - 06/04/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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whoa easy there...I never said I believed in my definition of God...
just making the point that many atheists only see God as "some bearded man in the sky that damns people to hell"
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#18367461 - 06/04/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quest_ions said: The problem is everybody has different definitions of God. A different version.
That's why this thread is completely pointless and the majority eat these kind of threads up.
Doesn't matter what kind of god you believe in. I already showed the rational logic using a non-deity and non-religion based example (loch ness monster). You can apply it to anything and it still works.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#18367646 - 06/04/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quest_ions said: whoa easy there...I never said I believed in my definition of God...
just making the point that many atheists only see God as "some bearded man in the sky that damns people to hell"
Yeah, but you said the thread is completely pointless because "everyone has a different definition of god". Well first of all, I don't have any particular "definition of god" because I don't believe in god. Do you believe in "god"? If so, how do you define it? That's all I was asking.
And if you don't believe in god, then you know that "everyone" does not "have a different definition of god."
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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zzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18371245 - 06/05/13 04:37 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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alright 'god'---going back a hundred miles above when I presented a definition which I will summarize~~~
Quote:
To be 'possessed by a god' was in ancient Greece given the definition: Late Latin enthūsiasmus, from Greek enthousiasmos, from enthousiazein, to be inspired by a god, from entheos, possessed : en-, in; see en-2 + theos, god.
So this means like--nature was seen as alive, and plants that opened the eyes were considered gods, angels, spirits, daemons. The eating of them becomes you a god/ And this very ancient understanding gets used by Christian mythology and made to be an ACTUAL 'Son of God'---get it? IE it is made to be historical---for political power!
In these times the oppressive myth is scientific materialism, and/or Physicalism, and the demand is that 'everything is matter' and 'only that which can be measured is real'. And that is why you are reading the 'atheists' here push the 'rationalist' agenda, because so-called rationality as it is defined by a-theism is 'measure' as scientific materialism/scientism demands reality to be so it can then tell you what is real and what is delusion according to their 'reason'.
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
#18371366 - 06/05/13 06:13 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very well put zzrip. If I understand you, at least what I recognize in your post, is that it is a sort of circular reasoning or self-fulfilling system.
If it is measurable it is real and if it is real, it is measurable. Since it is measurable, measurability must be rational and logical and therefore a demand on reality that must be met. Did I understand that right?
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18371474 - 06/05/13 07:10 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vaipen said: Very well put zzrip. If I understand you, at least what I recognize in your post, is that it is a sort of circular reasoning or self-fulfilling system.
If it is measurable it is real and if it is real, it is measurable. Since it is measurable, measurability must be rational and logical and therefore a demand on reality that must be met. Did I understand that right?
Yes. They become limited by their sense that only measurement shows what is real. But what If we said 'how do you measure the immeasurable?'
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Does

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc:
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
#18371776 - 06/05/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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are u all still arguing over the semantics of the title?
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
#18371872 - 06/05/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: alright 'god'---going back a hundred miles above when I presented a definition which I will summarize~~~
Quote:
To be 'possessed by a god' was in ancient Greece given the definition: Late Latin enthūsiasmus, from Greek enthousiasmos, from enthousiazein, to be inspired by a god, from entheos, possessed : en-, in; see en-2 + theos, god.
So this means like--nature was seen as alive, and plants that opened the eyes were considered gods, angels, spirits, daemons. The eating of them becomes you a god/ And this very ancient understanding gets used by Christian mythology and made to be an ACTUAL 'Son of God'---get it? IE it is made to be historical---for political power!
In these times the oppressive myth is scientific materialism, and/or Physicalism, and the demand is that 'everything is matter' and 'only that which can be measured is real'. And that is why you are reading the 'atheists' here push the 'rationalist' agenda, because so-called rationality as it is defined by a-theism is 'measure' as scientific materialism/scientism demands reality to be so it can then tell you what is real and what is delusion according to their 'reason'.
The notion that science is an ideology is pathetic - the "ideology" to follow evidence wherever it leads. That's not an ideology. An Ideology, (as implied in the word "scientism") is a belief that cannot be altered. If there is any evidence whatsoever that there is something more to the human mind (or the universe for that matter) other than material entities, then scientists would be the first to accept this. But there is absolutely no evidence. To the contrary, the more we learn about the brain, the more evidence there is that it is merely atoms interacting in certain ways. You may not like it but that's the way it is. And stop using the word "scientism," you make a fool out of yourself.
Please don't call other people names or suggest they are fools. Please confine your arguments to the topic of discussion. Thanks! -johnm214
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by johnm214 (06/05/13 09:04 PM)
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