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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18158972 - 04/24/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
The point is to win the debate.
Not necessarily. A debate can also mean an 'opinion forming conversation'. I prefer that definition myself.
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18159009 - 04/24/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: When all self-reflectiveness disappear from the world, the world will seize to exist.
No. That's just wrong. Solipsism is a pretty silly idea.
Why? Based on what do you claim that. Did you study solipsism and to what extent?
I find solipsism a very practical and useful philosophy that serves me well in life. It is a vital and living part of my personal cosmology. It is the basis for it and I have expanded upon the original millennia old idea, dealing e.g. with the fact there are other minds beside me, which is not a contradiction to solipsism.
I never see any arguments against solipsism. Yes, if you start searching internet you can find articles about it and critiques and mostly they claim that it is an extreme idealistic notion etc. Mostly I see two reactions. The first is from people who actually understand at least a little bit about it and they claim it is impractical or not a position one can truly maintain and the second is an emotional response.
Solipsism seems to be a personal insult to many people because all they know is that the philosophy seems to existentially deny them or their existence. After all, what they understand about it is that the one who claims to be a solipsist believes only he to be real and that they are just in his imagination.
Just imagine when someone says 'I don't believe you are real except as something I produce with my mind. Of course, that is not what solipsism is about at all.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18159078 - 04/24/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I dont' see it as being particularly unrealistic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18164857 - 04/25/13 05:12 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vaipen said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: When all self-reflectiveness disappear from the world, the world will seize to exist.
No. That's just wrong. Solipsism is a pretty silly idea.
Why? Based on what do you claim that. Did you study solipsism and to what extent?
I find solipsism a very practical and useful philosophy that serves me well in life. It is a vital and living part of my personal cosmology. It is the basis for it and I have expanded upon the original millennia old idea, dealing e.g. with the fact there are other minds beside me, which is not a contradiction to solipsism.
I never see any arguments against solipsism. Yes, if you start searching internet you can find articles about it and critiques and mostly they claim that it is an extreme idealistic notion etc. Mostly I see two reactions. The first is from people who actually understand at least a little bit about it and they claim it is impractical or not a position one can truly maintain and the second is an emotional response.
Solipsism seems to be a personal insult to many people because all they know is that the philosophy seems to existentially deny them or their existence. After all, what they understand about it is that the one who claims to be a solipsist believes only he to be real and that they are just in his imagination.
Just imagine when someone says 'I don't believe you are real except as something I produce with my mind. Of course, that is not what solipsism is about at all.
im not exactly sure what your solipsism is, but i would think at least the ways we can be socially organized to work toward greater ends would not be best described with a solipsitic frame. like an ant could be described as having it's own mind but could also be described as serving a distinct purpose in the greater 'mind' of the colony.
why or to what we choose to allocate 'minds' to is up for contention... why you would think it irrefutably true that you yourself have a mind is also (imo most claims to irrefutable knowledge tend to be pretty dodgy ones)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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lolwut
bad motherfucker


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: quinn] 1
#18164863 - 04/25/13 05:15 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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This thread is fucked 100 pages and no conclusion
-------------------- Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...
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teknix
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Posts: 11,953
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lolwut]
#18164890 - 04/25/13 05:40 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
lolwut said: This thread is fucked 100 pages and no conclusion
Atheism (in it's entirety) is objectively and conclusively not the only rational position, nor is it even rational as a whole, because the irrationality of certain aspects contaminates the rest of the culture.
Sure there might be a pure culture in the petri dish, if you don't count the contaminates . . . Yet to be a pure culture you have to consider the contaminates and isolate the rationality away from the irrationality.
Edited by teknix (04/25/13 05:57 AM)
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Society
Mmmm... pizza



Registered: 07/03/04
Posts: 14,299
Loc:
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lolwut]
#18167602 - 04/25/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
lolwut said: This thread is fucked 100 pages and no conclusion
There will never be a conclusion on this ever.
Also, nice avatar. Great Deku Tree would support OP, tho.
-------------------- Delicious Pizza
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lolwut
bad motherfucker


Registered: 08/14/10
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Society]
#18168988 - 04/25/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Society said:
Quote:
lolwut said: This thread is fucked 100 pages and no conclusion
There will never be a conclusion on this ever.
Also, nice avatar. Great Deku Tree would support OP, tho.
-------------------- Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: quinn]
#18170404 - 04/26/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think solipsism is an overarching concept and most, if not all other concepts such as atheism are subsets of this idea. You mentioned social organization and working towards greater ends.
I find that solipsism removes the sting out of many opposing ideas. It opens the door for mutual respect. And this is how and why.
A solipsist understands that he is responsible for reality, it is his creation. He is the original source of reality. Are other minds figments of his imagination? No, they are all solipist beings as well. And they too can claim to be the original consciousness that gives rise to our experience of reality. Wheteher they claim to be atheists or theists does not matter, because they are all inside their own reality bubble.
The question, to me, is not if god exists or not or that there is not enough data to choose either position. To me what is important is that we are all part of one consciousness. Without going off in a tangent, call it Unified Field or that Quantum Foam that scientists have mentioned or whatever you like. If there is only one Field of Consciousness, yet there are 7 billion humans, all with individual minds, how could I be the only mind in existence?
I believe that the original single consciousness created reality as a playpen for experience. It then, in my ultra-short version of what steps were taken, caused a cosmological evolution that ended up with sentient lifeforms called humans on a planet somewhere. And probably, sentient beings elsewhere in reality too. We are part of the universe and each other, we are all basically One Being, that split itself up into a reality and within that reality are self-reflective beings.
A solipsist is someone who recognizes that only he is that single Unified Field or Original Consciousness. And allows anybody else to claim the same thing, without being angry abhout it, because from anyone's perspective solipsism is true.
Therefore there is no need to debate issues like atheism or theism or what is true. What is true is up to any solipsist, for it is he who creates reality. And so if he chooses to install the concept of a god or deity, it is perfectly logical to say that god does exists, albeit only in his reality. And that at the same time god does not exist in another's reality. There is no objective reality, it is for that reason I claim that reality seizes to exist when you die. That what we believe to be objective about reality is just that part of it that we may call the 'public space' as we call the street in our world in contrast to our own private property. I call it the 'concensus' that is all that we maintain to agree upon in order for us to have experience in a stable world, which was the original purpose of consciousness. We are in a playpen and all we have to do on Earth is to have a laugh.
And so we should make the most out of our lives with respect to others so they too can have a positive experience. Solipsism in some ways agrees with quantum mechanics. I maintain, out of my concepts of reality and solipsism at its heart, that I wish to choose not between dual opposing points of view, that is to say, that there is either a god or that there is not, or both of them in dual opposition to the agnostic viewpoint. I rather believe that reality has room for all points of view simultaneously and I have always wondered why there is this 'room'. How is it possible that conflicting ideas about reality can co-exist without reality collapsing as if matter and antimatter collide? The only way to explain it is through solipsism. Solipsism is a precondition for any quantum state so to say. Its very concept always precedes any reasoning. It is the most fundamental base concept of all other philosophies and ideas.
So to me it liberates my thinking to be able to accept any idea. I would normally call myself an atheist because I have a very human antipathy against organized religion that I believe did more harm than good. The notion of god in religious context I don't agree with and dislike, so I threw that out. I killed god because as a solipsist I create my own reality. On the other hand, I can resuscitate god if I want to but it would not be a theist's god, but another word for the Unified Field. So god is real and is not real at the same time, just as SchrΓΆdinger's cat is alive and dead at the same time. To me that position is more logical than dual opposition between believers and non-believers and all those alongside ideas with small differences.
We humans are that what collapses the wave function and believers collpase it one way and atheist the other. To me both don't understand the nature of reality deeply enough.
Edited by Vaipen (04/26/13 04:21 AM)
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Society]
#18170413 - 04/26/13 04:28 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Society said:
Quote:
lolwut said: This thread is fucked 100 pages and no conclusion
There will never be a conclusion on this ever.
Also, nice avatar. Great Deku Tree would support OP, tho.
Oh, the irony . . .
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teknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18170454 - 04/26/13 05:20 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vaipen said: I think solipsism is an overarching concept and most, if not all other concepts such as atheism are subsets of this idea. You mentioned social organization and working towards greater ends.
I find that solipsism removes the sting out of many opposing ideas. It opens the door for mutual respect. And this is how and why.
A solipsist understands that he is responsible for reality, it is his creation. He is the original source of reality. Are other minds figments of his imagination? No, they are all solipist beings as well. And they too can claim to be the original consciousness that gives rise to our experience of reality. Wheteher they claim to be atheists or theists does not matter, because they are all inside their own reality bubble.
The question, to me, is not if god exists or not or that there is not enough data to choose either position. To me what is important is that we are all part of one consciousness. Without going off in a tangent, call it Unified Field or that Quantum Foam that scientists have mentioned or whatever you like. If there is only one Field of Consciousness, yet there are 7 billion humans, all with individual minds, how could I be the only mind in existence?
I believe that the original single consciousness created reality as a playpen for experience. It then, in my ultra-short version of what steps were taken, caused a cosmological evolution that ended up with sentient lifeforms called humans on a planet somewhere. And probably, sentient beings elsewhere in reality too. We are part of the universe and each other, we are all basically One Being, that split itself up into a reality and within that reality are self-reflective beings.
A solipsist is someone who recognizes that only he is that single Unified Field or Original Consciousness. And allows anybody else to claim the same thing, without being angry abhout it, because from anyone's perspective solipsism is true.
Therefore there is no need to debate issues like atheism or theism or what is true. What is true is up to any solipsist, for it is he who creates reality. And so if he chooses to install the concept of a god or deity, it is perfectly logical to say that god does exists, albeit only in his reality. And that at the same time god does not exist in another's reality. There is no objective reality, it is for that reason I claim that reality seizes to exist when you die. That what we believe to be objective about reality is just that part of it that we may call the 'public space' as we call the street in our world in contrast to our own private property. I call it the 'concensus' that is all that we maintain to agree upon in order for us to have experience in a stable world, which was the original purpose of consciousness. We are in a playpen and all we have to do on Earth is to have a laugh.
And so we should make the most out of our lives with respect to others so they too can have a positive experience. Solipsism in some ways agrees with quantum mechanics. I maintain, out of my concepts of reality and solipsism at its heart, that I wish to choose not between dual opposing points of view, that is to say, that there is either a god or that there is not, or both of them in dual opposition to the agnostic viewpoint. I rather believe that reality has room for all points of view simultaneously and I have always wondered why there is this 'room'. How is it possible that conflicting ideas about reality can co-exist without reality collapsing as if matter and antimatter collide? The only way to explain it is through solipsism. Solipsism is a precondition for any quantum state so to say. Its very concept always precedes any reasoning. It is the most fundamental base concept of all other philosophies and ideas.
So to me it liberates my thinking to be able to accept any idea. I would normally call myself an atheist because I have a very human antipathy against organized religion that I believe did more harm than good. The notion of god in religious context I don't agree with and dislike, so I threw that out. I killed god because as a solipsist I create my own reality. On the other hand, I can resuscitate god if I want to but it would not be a theist's god, but another word for the Unified Field. So god is real and is not real at the same time, just as SchrΓΆdinger's cat is alive and dead at the same time. To me that position is more logical than dual opposition between believers and non-believers and all those alongside ideas with small differences.
We humans are that what collapses the wave function and believers collpase it one way and atheist the other. To me both don't understand the nature of reality deeply enough.
This is like pearls before swine, did you see the argument against that position?
"No. That's just wrong. Solipsism is a pretty silly idea."
Wow, this guy is brilliant!
(Btw, the collapse is from only the Copenhagen Interpretation)
In reality the wave is still existing and only appears collapsed, IE: viewing 4-d from 3-d perspective. The wave is still existing but viewing it only yields a particle of the entire function that is in the "background" or behind the particle, The entire form of the wave or (waveform*) doesn't really collapse, it only reveals a particle of it's 4+ spatial dimensional shape.
Quote:
"Whatever Heisenberg's motivation, his invention of a unitary Copenhagen view on interpretation, at the center of which was his own, distinctively subjectivist view of the role of the observer, quickly found an audience."
"Originally Jeffrey Bub and Clifton were able to demonstrate (given some idealized conditions) that Bohr's complementarity and Bohm's mechanics fall under their uniqueness theorem for no-collapse interpretations.
Clift on and Halvorson improve this result by showing that Bohr's idea of position and momentum complementarity can be expressed in terms of inequivalent representations in the C*-algebraic formalism of quantum mechanics. It turns out that either position or momentum are dynamically significant, but it is not permissible to assume that position and momentum are both dynamically significant in any single context. From these assumptions they deduced Bohm' mechanics by adding the metaphysical postulate that position measurement is always dynamically significant, but this metaphysical restriction requires, as they emphasize, that positions have a dubious priviledged ontological status. Rather, Clifton and Halvorson (1999) and Halvorson (2004) believe that complementarity may give us a realist interpretation of quantum field theory."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/
Edited by teknix (04/26/13 05:54 AM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18176838 - 04/27/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vaipen said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: When all self-reflectiveness disappear from the world, the world will seize to exist.
No. That's just wrong. Solipsism is a pretty silly idea.
Why? Based on what do you claim that. Did you study solipsism and to what extent?
I find solipsism a very practical and useful philosophy that serves me well in life. It is a vital and living part of my personal cosmology. It is the basis for it and I have expanded upon the original millennia old idea, dealing e.g. with the fact there are other minds beside me, which is not a contradiction to solipsism.
I never see any arguments against solipsism. Yes, if you start searching internet you can find articles about it and critiques and mostly they claim that it is an extreme idealistic notion etc. Mostly I see two reactions. The first is from people who actually understand at least a little bit about it and they claim it is impractical or not a position one can truly maintain and the second is an emotional response.
Solipsism seems to be a personal insult to many people because all they know is that the philosophy seems to existentially deny them or their existence. After all, what they understand about it is that the one who claims to be a solipsist believes only he to be real and that they are just in his imagination.
Just imagine when someone says 'I don't believe you are real except as something I produce with my mind. Of course, that is not what solipsism is about at all.
In the first quote, you state it as a fact that the world will seize to exist if there is no self-consciousness. But then you say that solipsism is a personal philosophy that helps you with your life. So which one is it?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain




Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18177035 - 04/27/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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>> Well obviously, you've been herded by the "new atheists." See, there's no way out - no matter what you believe, or how much you can think for yourself, you must have been herded and indoctrinated into the "religion of atheism". At least that's what many people here seem to believe.
Nah, "new atheists" have an agenda to obliterate religion. They see it is the root of our all our human problems, when really it's just a symptom. One does not have to be part of a clique to articulate or follow the line of reasoning I set forth.
--------------------
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ped]
#18177047 - 04/27/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: >> Well obviously, you've been herded by the "new atheists." See, there's no way out - no matter what you believe, or how much you can think for yourself, you must have been herded and indoctrinated into the "religion of atheism". At least that's what many people here seem to believe.
Nah, "new atheists" have an agenda to obliterate religion. They see it is the root of our all our human problems, when really it's just a symptom.
Back that up, please. I've never heard any popular new atheist say that, and I've heard many of them explicitly deny it: Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, et cet.
Once again, I suspect you of just making up a straw man to beat up because you have this vague discomfort with atheism but can't defeat it on the merits.
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18180159 - 04/28/13 06:46 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: In the first quote, you state it as a fact that the world will seize to exist if there is no self-consciousness. But then you say that solipsism is a personal philosophy that helps you with your life. So which one is it?
It is both.
You know, after studying the mind of Terrence McKenna and Alan Watts, I am now moving to John Lilly. And I have barely started or I come across his view that all he said was nonsense, or something to that effect. I take my own ideas with a grain of salt. Having said that, they still provide me with answers to existential questions. When I die the world will seize to exist. It flows out of the position I inhabit as a solipsist. What happens to you, I can't say. You are equal to me, so for you maybe the world go on. But I can never witness that.
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#18180161 - 04/28/13 06:47 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Ped said: >> Well obviously, you've been herded by the "new atheists." See, there's no way out - no matter what you believe, or how much you can think for yourself, you must have been herded and indoctrinated into the "religion of atheism". At least that's what many people here seem to believe.
Nah, "new atheists" have an agenda to obliterate religion. They see it is the root of our all our human problems, when really it's just a symptom.
Back that up, please. I've never heard any popular new atheist say that, and I've heard many of them explicitly deny it: Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, et cet.
Once again, I suspect you of just making up a straw man to beat up because you have this vague discomfort with atheism but can't defeat it on the merits.
What are the merits to you then?
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18180439 - 04/28/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vaipen said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: In the first quote, you state it as a fact that the world will seize to exist if there is no self-consciousness. But then you say that solipsism is a personal philosophy that helps you with your life. So which one is it?
It is both.
You know, after studying the mind of Terrence McKenna and Alan Watts, I am now moving to John Lilly. And I have barely started or I come across his view that all he said was nonsense, or something to that effect. I take my own ideas with a grain of salt. Having said that, they still provide me with answers to existential questions. When I die the world will cease to exist. It flows out of the position I inhabit as a solipsist. What happens to you, I can't say. You are equal to me, so for you maybe the world go on. But I can never witness that.
You're confusing "the world" with your "perception of the world." When you die, the world does not cease to exist. Let me put it this way - when you die, does my world cease to exist? Well just like you say, you don't know what happens to me. "My world" still exists. Do you agree that you and I inhabit the same world? We don't have different "world" we live in. We have different lives, and different perceptions of the world. You don't really think there actually are 6 billion different worlds, one for each person alive, do you? It just seems like a pretty silly idea
Edited by clam_dude (04/28/13 09:47 AM)
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18180450 - 04/28/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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sorry but *cease
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Vaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18184686 - 04/29/13 02:08 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is no difference in perception of the world and the world. To me it is the same thing. You cannot ask that when I die if your world seizes to exist. I would be dead, so I could never know, which makes the question irrelevant.
And no, I don't agree we inhabit the same world. Your perception of reality is different than mine, therefore you live in another world. And yes, I do think that there are as many worlds as there are self-reflective, self-aware consciousnesses.
The only reason you and I can acknowledge each other is because our self consciousness rises above the even plane of reality. A dot on paper cannot look around and see a 3D world, unless it rises above it, protruding from the paper. And then you and I can become aware of the other.
But what it comes down to is this, that we live in a consensus-reality. Like I described before, think of reality as a private and a public space. The public space is the consensus, it is the cosmos we agree upon so we may interact and experience life, communicate. It is the space where you and I could stand next to each other and look at, say, a tree and agree that is a tree.
Our private space is much bigger but we only believe we exist in what is public.
Edited by Vaipen (04/29/13 02:09 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen] 1
#18185406 - 04/29/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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And no, I don't agree we inhabit the same world.
Uhm, no. That's a childish fairy tale way to see things. I'm pretty sure if I shoot you in my world, you will die in your world and everyone else's world too. That's because there is only one world. Different perceptions do not equate to different world.
And you agree with this despite your ridiculous argument. Otherwise, you would not lock your doors at night. What would be the point if you inhabit your own personal world instead of a shared one where others can steal you shit which exists in a common world.
This argument is the kind of shit I used to argue in second grade.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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