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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18137185 - 04/19/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


A false dilemma (also called the fallacy of the false alternative, false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, fallacy of the excluded middle, fallacy of false choice, black-and/or-white thinking, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses) is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option. The options may be a position that is between two extremes (such as when there are shades of grey) or may be completely different alternatives. The opposite of this fallacy is argument to moderation.

False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception.

In the community of philosophers and scholars, many believe that "unless a distinction can be made rigorous and precise it isn't really a distinction."[1] An exception is analytic philosopher John Searle, who called it an incorrect assumption which produces false dichotomies.[2] Searle insists that "it is a condition of the adequacy of a precise theory of an indeterminate phenomenon that it should precisely characterize that phenomenon as indeterminate; and a distinction is no less a distinction for allowing for a family of related, marginal, diverging cases."[2] Similarly, when two options are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities; this can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma





In reality it isn't just atheist or theist. Making it appear so is creating a false dilemma.

k ulose, thx for playing ~


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18137271 - 04/19/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

(k ulose, thx for playing )

How old are you? :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18137319 - 04/19/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
(k ulose, thx for playing )

How old are you? :lol:




Old enough to wtfpwn the illegitimate arguments.



:bearbreakdance:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18137352 - 04/19/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I'm just waiting for the old guys to die off for the paradigm shift to occur.

(out with the old and in with the new)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18137402 - 04/19/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I'm just waiting for the old guys to die off for the paradigm shift to occur.

(out with the old and in with the new)





You have a long wait and by then there's always a new handful of awakened ones of your age to laugh at your posts. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18137425 - 04/19/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
I'm just waiting for the old guys to die off for the paradigm shift to occur.

(out with the old and in with the new)





You have a long wait and by then there's always a new handful of awakened ones of your age to laugh at your posts. :haha:




Why do that when we'll have all your post to laugh and a bunch of idiots subscribing to scientism and not realizing it?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18137446 - 04/19/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

good one:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18138735 - 04/20/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? (the answer is yes)

Of course, our brains are part of reality, and whatever delusions we have are definitely real.




The answer is not yes. If there is no one to hear the tree fall, then no one can really know if there was a sound or not.




Imagine the world hundreds of million years ago, before people.  You agree with me that there were in fact trees, correct?




Not correct. I lack an understanding of that timeframe to be able to have a valuable opinion. I can assume there were, but that is not evidence-based reasoning. Since we are talking about atheism, we also necessarily debate issues regarding logical thinking and reasoning.

Quote:


And when those trees fell, they made sounds.  Or what if all of the people on the planet died suddenly, do you think that means that trees, or rocks, or everything else ceases to exist?




Illogical. You just shifted the example into the past. If all people die, what do you mean by that. That all self-reflective, self-conscious being die? To what extend do animals have self-reflection? And would thet self-reflection be enough to sustain the world?

When all self-reflectiveness disappear from the world, the world will seize to exist.


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18138768 - 04/20/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
I was showing that bot the atheist and the theist can come to ruthlessness through finding justification in their belief systems. Atheism is a belief system insofar as it is usable as a guide for a way of life. Or perhaps 'the right way of life'.





How is atheism a "belief system"?  The word "atheism" wouldn't even be needed if it weren't for religion.  If everyone around me believed in tooth fairies, then I would want to specify that I am an a-toothfairyest.  Does that mean that "atoothfairyesm" is a belief system as well?  Just because some people believe in things without evidence doesn't mean that everyone does.  I don't really have a belief one way or the other regarding god. It's a non-issue to me, that's why I'm an atheist.  Most atheists say the same thing.

So yes, many non-religious people have found justification for killing people other than religion.  But that doesn't mean that a lack of belief of god is to blame.  Racism, and other irrational, flawed ways of thinking are to blame.




You are desperately trying to isolate the word atheism from every day life of people. You want atheism, that aspect of a person that would be atheist to have no bearing on that person's  life. So you are in fact trying to diminish the value of atheism to be insignificant to that person's life. And yet at the same time you find this aspect of great significance because of its definition, which is a definition in relation to one of the major questions of the last couple of thousand years: is there a god?

You don't want atheism to be a belief system because that would mean it was a very large part of how someone thinks. And it is. It is a defining aspect of the atheist. With it comes a whole lot of associated views perspectives. These all contribute to the declaration of someone who says he is an atheist. E.g. many atheist seem to follow very rational ways of thinking. So an atheist is often also a rationalist. Those two aspects of someone's personality start to form a way of thinking, which forms a belief system. Which is the total of all combined factors that make up someone's view about the world.

In the theist it is combined of dogma, faith, belief in certain values and norms and how to be in the world. For an atheist it is just the same way, but in their case they adopt science as an important way of viewing the world and logic and all those things associated with such things.

So your comparing two things in the wrong way when you say that one leads to the other, that religious belief gives rise to a notion like atheism. Your confuse neutrality with believing. You claim that it is a non-issue. But there are believers and non-beleivers and you claim a third position where you don't make any claims in either direction. However, that too is a position. And with that position comes all that I wrote above. It is a worldview, which is just one in the row of beleiving in god, not beleiving in god and having no opinion.

Having no opinion is also an opinion. Namely that you have no opinion. To me, the theist, atheist and agnostic are all on the same line of ways of looking at the world.


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18138787 - 04/20/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
The answer is not yes. If there is no one to hear the tree fall, then no one can really know if there was a sound or not.




This is wrong.  What if you put a tape recorder there? It would pick up the sound right? And so what if the tape recorder picks up the sound and no one hears that?  Or what if another animal hears it? Or a bird? Or nothing? What if only one person hears it, and nobody else knows about it?




We can debate about SchrΓΆdinger's Cat and quantum physics in some other thread if you like. I rather not derail the topic much more. Sorry if that is unsatisfactory to you.


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18138842 - 04/20/13 02:43 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

teknix said:
You think yourself to be an atheist in a very broad and general term that doesn't acknowledge agnosticism and try to paint a black and white picture in false dichotomy and inconsistency.



I don't know what you're trying to say here. Most atheists can be considered agnostics as well, in the most technical and strict definition, but in terms of practicality I am an atheist. For all practical purposes I am a full atheist. If some evidence were given to me that made agnosticism look more correct, I would lean that way but as it is right now I see no evidence whatsoever that suggests theism is true so I am an a-theist.




But is that all you are? When you think about yourself, are you only an atheist? Or are there many more aspects to your personality that are of value to yourself (and others)?

How do you define yourself? What sort of person are you? On what do you hinge mostly? Can you pick that very core out of which all your world views flow?

I ask you this because it seems strange that we are debating atheism and what it is, with teknix on one side not agreeing with the definition as stated e.g. on wikipedia, him raising a philosophical issue and the other side maintaining that the definition is all by which we should go by, nothing more and nothing less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10]"

"Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claimsβ€”especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claimsβ€”are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable."

"Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism is commonly a monotheistic doctrine concerning the nature of a deity, and that deity's relationship to the universe.["

-- Wikipedia

So what discussion are you in? One about defending that atheism is what the definition says, or the discussion where teknix attempts to re-examine that definition to show there is a logical error within that definition?

If you are of the position that the definition must remain as it is, then the debate is over. If you want to allow for a debate considering the idea that a 'rejection of belief' in itself forms a belief or is part of a broader belief system or way to look at the world, then you have to acknowledge and be willing to accept teknix' supposition.

And you also need to be clear together what point you want to debate. Atheism or agnosticism. Since the topic is atheism, I suggest doing only that.

I think that atheism and theism are like a railroad track, parallel lines to a belief system. One accepts, one rejects. These two belong together by existence of the other. There is no person without the background against to which he appears.

So in that sense they both are indeed belief systems. Agnosticism is a third track, but it does not go parallel wit the others. In fact, it has no track. It never comes to be a track. Unknowable means no direction of a track gets established. And so no track is created.

If atheism is the only rational position, what does that mean for its relation to theism? If they are parallel tracks that lead to some conclusion about reality, then why would atheism be rational and theism irrational? Both follow straight lines of equal curves to the conclusion up ahead. In other words, they both follow patterns of thinking and a form of reasoning. Both forms of reasoning are valid. None is better than the other.

So to claim atheism is the only rational position is flawed.

Rationality and reasoning are different things.

From wiki:

"A reason is a consideration which justifies or explains."

"In philosophy, rationality is the characteristic of any action, belief, or desire, that makes their choice optimal under a set of constraints."

The topic says atheism is the only rational position. But it suggests there is a reason for it. So there is a justification to think that under a set of constraints, atheism is the optimal choice to believe.

So rationality has a basis in subjective experience such as belief, desire and actions. So the topic is wrong. Because theism is also based in this subjectiveness.

For this reason more and more I leave rationality aside and prefer to use reason. A theory or statement should be reasonable and logical by its own ruleset to valuable to me. This then validates both tracks, atheism and theism.

I'd like to add that one could think of oneself as a train riding the tracks of atheism and theism. Each track has a vector, atheism e.g. being the left track, goes forward and theism going backward, yet they remain parallel. As trains we can move back and forth on the tracks, whatever the vector is.

Atheism leads to a station ahead of us and theism to a station behind us. The fact they lead to different stations or conclusions does not mean our left wheels are forced forwards while the right wheels must follow the vector backwards.


Edited by Vaipen (04/20/13 02:49 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18138848 - 04/20/13 02:46 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:


But is that all you are? When you think about yourself, are you only an atheist? Or are there many more aspects to your personality that are of value to yourself (and others)?





Yes, of course that is all she is.  Her nonbelief in some entity is the entirety of her nature :rolleyes:


This whole rant is translated as:  "I can't attack your position, but I don't like it, so I'm fishing for other shit I can try and lump in with atheism to attack".


Its not our fault that we're right and you've got nothing. :boot:


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18138862 - 04/20/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Me labeling my own belief has nothing to do with dividing people's stances.

It's not a false dichotomy. You can be either theist or atheist. If you're unsure, you're an agnostic. It's a spectrum which includes all the possible permutations and shades of these beliefs. I don't see how this is fanciful or doesn't represent reality. :shrug:

What do you suppose there is in this case other than theism, atheism and agnosticism? Are you arguing that there's another possible position I'm ignoring?




Well, I am not a theist or an atheist nor am I an agnostic. I am a solipsist. What would you call me then? I am outside reality? :tongue:

Solipsism is the only reasonable rationality.



Edited by Vaipen (04/20/13 02:56 AM)


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18138873 - 04/20/13 02:58 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:


But is that all you are? When you think about yourself, are you only an atheist? Or are there many more aspects to your personality that are of value to yourself (and others)?





Yes, of course that is all she is.  Her nonbelief in some entity is the entirety of her nature :rolleyes:


This whole rant is translated as:  "I can't attack your position, but I don't like it, so I'm fishing for other shit I can try and lump in with atheism to attack".


Its not our fault that we're right and you've got nothing. :boot:




Would you care to discuss the rest of my post too please.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18138879 - 04/20/13 03:02 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

not really, it seems like flowery nonsense.

that atheism only exists in opposition to theism/deism doesn't suggest that it is 'heading in the same direction' as in your train track metaphore.  Dieing in a ditch and not dieing in a ditch are also defined in opposition- does that suggest they go to the same place?  No, one goes to you dieing in a ditch, the other doesn't.

This is a trivial point- so trivial I suspect your straining to reach some conclusion you can't honestly support.  I suspect its the usual "everybody's right- I'm ok, your ok" nonsense.  Nope, if there's not good evidence for god, it is logical to be an atheist.


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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18138893 - 04/20/13 03:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
not really, it seems like flowery nonsense.

that atheism only exists in opposition to theism/deism doesn't suggest that it is 'heading in the same direction' as in your train track metaphore.  Dieing in a ditch and not dieing in a ditch are also defined in opposition- does that suggest they go to the same place?  No, one goes to you dieing in a ditch, the other doesn't.

This is a trivial point- so trivial I suspect your straining to reach some conclusion you can't honestly support.  I suspect its the usual "everybody's right- I'm ok, your ok" nonsense.  Nope, if there's not good evidence for god, it is logical to be an atheist.




No that is not what it is about.

I think you don't understand what I wrote but are afraid to ask for clarification. So you make assumptions about what I mean, shooting in the dark.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18138901 - 04/20/13 03:19 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I can guarentee you I don't understand what you wrote, which is why I said it seems like flowery nonsense: lots of metaphore and symbolism but little content.  If you have something to say, just say it.  We don't need these preachy allusions to understand you.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18139063 - 04/20/13 05:57 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:


But is that all you are? When you think about yourself, are you only an atheist? Or are there many more aspects to your personality that are of value to yourself (and others)?





Yes, of course that is all she is.  Her nonbelief in some entity is the entirety of her nature :rolleyes:


This whole rant is translated as:  "I can't attack your position, but I don't like it, so I'm fishing for other shit I can try and lump in with atheism to attack".


Its not our fault that we're right and you've got nothing. :boot:




It could be that Only in the inclusively inconclusive, ill defined, false dilemma that she is even atheist.

It seems like a lot of your arguments have an affinity or attraction to such black and white reasoning.

*Come one come all sheeple, into the boxes you go.*

:header:


Edited by teknix (04/20/13 06:11 AM)


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18139151 - 04/20/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This entire thread is a contradiction,
The only thing it has proven is that we all have a irrational side that makes us argue with people over bullshit that will never be definitive ever..

Why waste you breathe?

I am agnostic, There could be something we don't know about but I wont be convinced until I can see it with my own eyes..

As far as any other religion goes, Best of luck to you.
It is not my place to insult anyone with a different belief and if you think that you are winning heavenly tokens for gods carnival by arguing that everyone else is wrong well then you are stupid..

So what is the point?

I think it is getting to the point where people have no belief in anything but just say that they do so they have something to talk about..

I know many atheist guys and well there all dicks..
The roll there eyes whenever they see anyone of any other culture or background which sickens me, If you are a believer in god you should have a similar mindset to anyone else with a belief system.

If a native american tribe was out of touch from the rest of the world,
Living in a dense forest, The word of god or any other religion would never contact those people.

My point there is that if there is a religion it could be any as even when a culture is convinced it's beliefs are true it defies logic that it could be a world religion due to the fact that this deity should love all of creation and yet neglects the closed off few..

So to sum up, Everyone needs to go get a life and just believe what they wanna believe..

P.s. If a tree falls in the woods, It doesn't make a sound unless there is someone or something to register it's presence.
It is a famous quote because although we know it would make a sound with someone standing there.
It does not make a sound when there is no device or ears or life to register it..

Please just trust me on this one, I am well educated on the subject..

:mushroom2:Phil.


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: PsilyPhily]
    #18139163 - 04/20/13 07:24 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This entire thread is a contradiction,
The only thing it has proven is that we all have a irrational side that makes us argue with people over bullshit that will never be definitive ever..


You could have stopped right there. :thumbup:

Please just trust me on this one,

This is always a bad sign.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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