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Diploid
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18136038 - 04/19/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Now we can have a debate about weather or not the position is rational, but that's what the position is. Teknix insists on saying it's something else. He is misrepresenting the atheistic view. And even after he has been corrected, he continues to perpetuate the same lies.
Given how dense some people seem to be, maybe it would be better to frame the discussion as "Withholding Belief in the Tooth Fairy is the Only Rational Position" and go from there. People seem to drag around so much baggage with the word god that it's damned near impossible to get through the fluff and get them to focus on the meat.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 1
#18136332 - 04/19/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: Even if that is true, there wouldn't be any way to know that or any EVIDENCE for it. You would be relying purely on your intuition.
A simple test would prove this. Leave a tape recorder or any instrument that can pick up sound vibrations in an empty wood for a period of time where no humans are. Listen to see if anything is picked up on the recorder or instrument.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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JoieDeVivre
Hippie Babysitter



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136362 - 04/19/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Also we know that when things fall, a vibration of sound waves is transmitted through the air because we can measure it time and time again and this will always happen, even without a conscious observer. Honestly can't believe anyone doesn't know that but I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this point.
-------------------- Sapere aude "We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."
UBUNTU- I am because we are.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#18136377 - 04/19/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Now we can have a debate about weather or not the position is rational, but that's what the position is. Teknix insists on saying it's something else. He is misrepresenting the atheistic view. And even after he has been corrected, he continues to perpetuate the same lies.
Given how dense some people seem to be, maybe it would be better to frame the discussion as "Withholding Belief in the Tooth Fairy is the Only Rational Position" and go from there. People seem to drag around so much baggage with the word god that it's damned near impossible to get through the fluff and get them to focus on the meat.
This is a debate forum, I will continue to disagree with your erroneous conclusion that plays multiple sides of the coin when conclusive and inconclusive are mutually exclusive conclusion. Try to make it about me all you want, it doesn't change my argument or your defeated arguments.
Your argument hinges on a glass of water dipped from the ocean, being that that glass of water doesn't contain fish, there must not be any fish in the ocean, this is your rationale.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
#18136409 - 04/19/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
JoieDeVivre said: Also we know that when things fall, a vibration of sound waves is transmitted through the air because we can measure it time and time again and this will always happen, even without a conscious observer. Honestly can't believe anyone doesn't know that but I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this point.
Any measurement requires observation in some form. Without observation there isn't anything to measure with, and therefore there wouldn't be measurements or evidence of anything. Measurements depend upon observation.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136455 - 04/19/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
teknix said: Even if that is true, there wouldn't be any way to know that or any EVIDENCE for it. You would be relying purely on your intuition.
A simple test would prove this. Leave a tape recorder or any instrument that can pick up sound vibrations in an empty wood for a period of time where no humans are. Listen to see if anything is picked up on the recorder or instrument.
Then how are you going to tell the results without listening to the tape recorder?

Think Schrodinger.
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18136504 - 04/19/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: I was showing that bot the atheist and the theist can come to ruthlessness through finding justification in their belief systems. Atheism is a belief system insofar as it is usable as a guide for a way of life. Or perhaps 'the right way of life'.
How is atheism a "belief system"? The word "atheism" wouldn't even be needed if it weren't for religion. If everyone around me believed in tooth fairies, then I would want to specify that I am an a-toothfairyest. Does that mean that "atoothfairyesm" is a belief system as well? Just because some people believe in things without evidence doesn't mean that everyone does. I don't really have a belief one way or the other regarding god. It's a non-issue to me, that's why I'm an atheist. Most atheists say the same thing.
So yes, many non-religious people have found justification for killing people other than religion. But that doesn't mean that a lack of belief of god is to blame. Racism, and other irrational, flawed ways of thinking are to blame.
Because there is a "belief" that there isn't a god, after god has been considered, rather than before the fact.
You have a small glass of water, filled from a gigantic ocean, and you are using that little glass of water to conclude that there aren't any fish in the ocean by the contents of your little glass.
That position is a completely illogical and irrational belief. That position is a part of the term "Atheism", what is so hard to understand?
Edited by teknix (04/19/13 05:16 PM)
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136612 - 04/19/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What is the nature of the "dark matter", this mysterious material that exerts a gravitational pull, but does not emit nor absorb light? Astronomers do not know.
Many cosmologists advocate reviving the cosmological constant term on theoretical grounds, as a way to explain the rate of expansion of the universe. Modern field theory associates this term with the energy density of the vacuum. For this energy density to be comparable to other forms of matter in the universe, it would require new physics theories. So the addition of a cosmological constant term has profound implications for particle physics and our understanding of the fundamental forces of nature.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_matter.html
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 1
#18136621 - 04/19/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
teknix said: Even if that is true, there wouldn't be any way to know that or any EVIDENCE for it. You would be relying purely on your intuition.
A simple test would prove this. Leave a tape recorder or any instrument that can pick up sound vibrations in an empty wood for a period of time where no humans are. Listen to see if anything is picked up on the recorder or instrument.
Then how are you going to tell the results without listening to the tape recorder?

Think Schrodinger.
You have someone listen to it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 1
#18136626 - 04/19/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Try to make it about me
Hello? Do you see your name anywhere? I'm not paying attention that much to even know who the fuck is in this thread. This personal attack is entirely in your head. You are not that important to me. 
Besides, you seem to love making 12 posts to get the same idea across that would fit in three lines in one post, so I rarely bother reading you any more. Verbosity for its own sake is boring.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136628 - 04/19/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136633 - 04/19/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: I was showing that bot the atheist and the theist can come to ruthlessness through finding justification in their belief systems. Atheism is a belief system insofar as it is usable as a guide for a way of life. Or perhaps 'the right way of life'.
How is atheism a "belief system"? The word "atheism" wouldn't even be needed if it weren't for religion. If everyone around me believed in tooth fairies, then I would want to specify that I am an a-toothfairyest. Does that mean that "atoothfairyesm" is a belief system as well? Just because some people believe in things without evidence doesn't mean that everyone does. I don't really have a belief one way or the other regarding god. It's a non-issue to me, that's why I'm an atheist. Most atheists say the same thing.
So yes, many non-religious people have found justification for killing people other than religion. But that doesn't mean that a lack of belief of god is to blame. Racism, and other irrational, flawed ways of thinking are to blame.
Because there is a "belief" that there isn't a god, after god has been considered, rather than before the fact.
You have a small glass of water, filled from a gigantic ocean, and you are using that little glass of water to conclude that there aren't any fish in the ocean by the contents of your little glass.
That position is a completely illogical and irrational belief. That position is a part of the term "Atheism", what is so hard to understand?
Atheism is the belief based on best evidence at hand that there is no god.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#18136637 - 04/19/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Try to make it about me
Hello? Do you see your name anywhere? I'm not paying attention that much to even know who the fuck is in this thread. This personal attack is entirely in your head. You are not that important to me. 
Besides, you seem to love making 12 posts to get the same idea across that would fit in three lines in one post, so I rarely bother reading you any more. Verbosity for its own sake is boring.
Ya, nothing at the person there huh? What I like or love has nothing to do with the argument. Do you have an argument? Present it so I can rip it to shreds.
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136645 - 04/19/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136672 - 04/19/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
clam_dude said:
Quote:
Vaipen said: I was showing that bot the atheist and the theist can come to ruthlessness through finding justification in their belief systems. Atheism is a belief system insofar as it is usable as a guide for a way of life. Or perhaps 'the right way of life'.
How is atheism a "belief system"? The word "atheism" wouldn't even be needed if it weren't for religion. If everyone around me believed in tooth fairies, then I would want to specify that I am an a-toothfairyest. Does that mean that "atoothfairyesm" is a belief system as well? Just because some people believe in things without evidence doesn't mean that everyone does. I don't really have a belief one way or the other regarding god. It's a non-issue to me, that's why I'm an atheist. Most atheists say the same thing.
So yes, many non-religious people have found justification for killing people other than religion. But that doesn't mean that a lack of belief of god is to blame. Racism, and other irrational, flawed ways of thinking are to blame.
Because there is a "belief" that there isn't a god, after god has been considered, rather than before the fact.
You have a small glass of water, filled from a gigantic ocean, and you are using that little glass of water to conclude that there aren't any fish in the ocean by the contents of your little glass.
That position is a completely illogical and irrational belief. That position is a part of the term "Atheism", what is so hard to understand?
Atheism is the belief based on best evidence at hand that there is no god. 
What evidence though? There isn't any evidence that there is not a god, it's not that hard to understand.
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136684 - 04/19/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know that, theres no evidence that there is one either. If you are going to believe in all the things that there is no evidence against you are going to have a long list of things to believe in. Like goblins and toothfaires and on an on.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136703 - 04/19/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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So to conclude either isn't rational from that perspective, and atheism containing that conclusion as one of its positions isn't being rational.
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136720 - 04/19/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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From the atheists I know they don't make final conclusions on god. In other words they don't say there is no god. They just don't believe it exists because of lack of evidence. That's logical
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (04/19/13 05:59 PM)
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18136725 - 04/19/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: From the atheists I know they don't make final conclusions on god.
Not the atheist I know.
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Icelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#18136729 - 04/19/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nothing I can do about that. I hang with a classier crowd.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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