Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < First | < Back | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | Next > | Last >
OfflinePsilyPhily
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 560
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18132458 - 04/18/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

No I'm not a theist, A theist believes that one deity exists or is at least partially convinced of it.

I have no evidence so cannot speculate,
As all it would be is speculation.

I entertain the idea of a deity but without hard evidence I can't say I am a believer in anything.

There is an obvious contradiction in terms that you missed but yer it all gets a bit hazy with these terms..

The only thing I was really going to say before was that you are arguing over terminology and that it was never getting you anywhere except off topic..

:mushroom2:Phil.


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18132503 - 04/18/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
You have to say god doesn't exist to claim atheism, sry!

:shrug:




Ok
toothfairies don't exist
leprechauns don't exist
King kong doesn't exist
God doesn't exist




Would you be willing to go so far as to say that god doesn't exist in any way shape or form?

You have an irrational belief there, obviously not a rational position let alone the only one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: PsilyPhily]
    #18132510 - 04/18/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PsilyPhily said:
No I'm not a theist, A theist believes that one deity exists or is at least partially convinced of it.

I have no evidence so cannot speculate,
As all it would be is speculation.

I entertain the idea of a deity but without hard evidence I can't say I am a believer in anything.

There is an obvious contradiction in terms that you missed but yer it all gets a bit hazy with these terms..

The only thing I was really going to say before was that you are arguing over terminology and that it was never getting you anywhere except off topic..

:mushroom2:Phil.




Everything you say here makes you sound just like every other atheist I've known.  They don't see any evidence for god.  You're not a theist, so you're an atheist. 


What's the contradiction in terms? Why don't you just point it out?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18132526 - 04/18/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Say that, "god doesn't exist in any way, shape, or form", out loud and see if it feels to be true.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18132621 - 04/18/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

PsilyPhily said:
No I'm not a theist, A theist believes that one deity exists or is at least partially convinced of it.

I have no evidence so cannot speculate,
As all it would be is speculation.

I entertain the idea of a deity but without hard evidence I can't say I am a believer in anything.

There is an obvious contradiction in terms that you missed but yer it all gets a bit hazy with these terms..

The only thing I was really going to say before was that you are arguing over terminology and that it was never getting you anywhere except off topic..

:mushroom2:Phil.




Everything you say here makes you sound just like every other atheist I've known.  They don't see any evidence for god.  You're not a theist, so you're an atheist. 


What's the contradiction in terms? Why don't you just point it out?




I already pointed it out, it being conclusive and inconclusive makes it a bit elusive.

It's like playing 2 sides of a 3 sided dice for instance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilyPhily
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 560
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18132662 - 04/18/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Ok well a theist believes there is a deity but perhaps can't decide which to believe in so remains a theist.. (Basically a believer in ?? )

An agnostic would say, Although science has not proven the existence of a god, Nor has it dis-proven it and so I cannot believe anything other than the science. (Basically just open to the idea that there could be a deity at work)

Therefor I am open minded on the subject of religion but can't say I believe there is a god because I wont until there is something to convince me so..

That may seem like a very minor difference but in my eyes that is a drastic difference..

I would say theists are ignorant because they believe blindly but even then it is not my place to say anything..
Having faith is empowering so that can be appreciated but to just feel that there is a deity without any reason too think so just seems illogical..

I won't hold anyone beliefs against them because it should be of no concern of mine, The only reason there is to argue on the subject is if someone else started the argument with you.. Even then it wont get either of you anywhere..

The religious person will remain religious while the atheist will remain an atheist. If you think your opinion will change anyone's beliefs, You are wrong.

:mushroom2:Phil.


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18133998 - 04/19/13 06:18 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?




There is a link between atheism and human conduct. Just like there is a link between a religion and a man his conduct.

Most people claim what you claim, that there is no link between very bad conduct and what they believe in. You say it is of no relevance that Stalin e.g. was an atheist, but do you claim that there is no link between crusaders Robert of Normandy or Bernard of Clairvaux and religion?

Of course there is. Both find justification for cruelty in what they believe to be ultimately true.

All you do is make a logical mistake here: because both the atheist and religious man commit violence, there can be no link between what they believe in. But as I showed you, this is not true, because both people find justification to commit violence as part of their worldview.

In the case of the atheist, since he doesn't believe in after death judgment, it may be easier to sign an order to move entire peoples to another area. The religious crusader may feel judgment, but he does it because it is also righteous to kill heretics. 

The atheist believes in no gods and therefore might feel powerful as a man on Earth and be the highest authority. And for this reason makes decisions that harm others, for their own best intentions no doubt. The crusader acts in accordance with the rules of god and as a servant of god must save lost souls by putting hte blade to them, so they repent in the last moment, to save their souls.

The atheist in his worldly way organizes society ruthlessly, the crusader ruthlessly enforces spiritual organization. They both operate in their own realm, society in the name of improvement and a better way of material life, wealth as a goal and spiritual life as an improvement, wellbeing as the goal.

To understand a Stalin, Pol Pot, a Hitler is to understand what they believed in. It is always relevant. No one should ever again argue that 'it doesn't matter'.




If someone believes that there is a god who wants them to kill infidels, that is a very clear reason why someone who believes in this god might go and commit violent acts.  How on earth can someone's lack of belief in something make them go and commit atrocities. 

According to you, no matter what anyone believes about anything, that could be a cause for violence.  But just because one belief system might be a cause for violence doesn't mean all belief systems are.  Even some religions - such as Jainism promote the opposite of violence.  There is no way that you're going to find a Jain ruler who kills his/her own people.  So yes, some specific religions promote violence. It's right there in the holy book.  So don't tell me that because I lack the ridiculous belief that some violent holy book is literally the word of god, that my beliefs are also a potential cause for violence.




You make some interesting points for sure.

So how could a lack of belief in something make them do bad things? Because there is no such thing as a void of belief. All people have a worldview, including moral views and values, norms and a way of life. Any of those or all combined can lead to justification for violence.

So yes, anything can lead to justification for violence. Consider this:

β€œGive me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him”
-- French Minister and Cardinal. 1585-1642

In the same way, any worldview, value, norm etc, can be taken in the reversed way of that quote. "Give me six personal views by the most honorable of men, and I will find reasons in them for him to commit violence.'

So in your case, you do not believe in a book containing the word of god, but when your atheism would be under attack, when you lived in a very religious society (I think that being an atheist in some muslim nations will get you a lot of trouble) when the pressure rises high enough, you might resort to violence. Don't you, after all, feel you have the right to be an atheist? Who are these religious "ridiculous" people to oppose your way of life, by what right do they judge you?

Jainism, hard to imagine how that would lead to acts of violence, however, Jainism could be considered an exception because at its core definitions there is non-violence. Atheism and islam and christianity etc, even Buddhism does not have this so specifically. Jainism is Jainism because it is non-violent, but christianity is not christianity because it (also) has something against violence.

So in this case, Jainsim is not a valid argument for your point I am afraid.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134013 - 04/19/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:The atheist in his worldly way organizes society ruthlessly, the crusader ruthlessly enforces spiritual organization. They both operate in their own realm, society in the name of improvement and a better way of material life, wealth as a goal and spiritual life as an improvement, wellbeing as the goal.





You need to take a look at the world around you. Countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, etc... are the world's most atheistic countries, and they also have some of the highest standards of living.  Stop using quasi-religious regimes, such as Stalin's Russia as examples of secular ones.




I live in an increasingly atheist country myself. The influence of the church is diminishing, though I also heard that that people are going back to christian belief to fill this gaping hole in their life I suppose. But overall, my society is very secular and comparable to Denmark etc.

I don't think you understood what I meant at all. I was showing that bot the atheist and the theist can come to ruthlessness through finding justification in their belief systems. Atheism is a belief system insofar as it is usable as a guide for a way of life. Or perhaps 'the right way of life'.

You claim Russia was a quasi-religious regime under Stalin? Care to show how you come to that conclusion?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134018 - 04/19/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
f you alter that brain chemistry by introducing some compound you alter the overall chemistry. Instead of serotonine or some other thing connecting to a receptor, the flood of DMT pushes that out of the way and connects instead. And your perception of reality changes. How is that not real?




This has been covered many times in the thread.  How on earth do you manage to confuse a perception of reality with reality itself?




To me there is no difference.




It doesn't matter what you think. They are not the same thing.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? (the answer is yes)

Of course, our brains are part of reality, and whatever delusions we have are definitely real.




The answer is not yes. If there is no one to hear the tree fall, then no one can really know if there was a sound or not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18134033 - 04/19/13 06:38 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Intent obviously matters in a situation where you're accusing someone of attacking or trying to belittle you. He was seriously asking because of how many times you've misinterpreted things and asked the same irrelevant and already exhausted questions time and time again.




The amount of times an argument goes back and forth or is repeated or does not come to some conclusion or agreement or gets misinterpreted has no relevance to whether or not a personalism was used. :idea: The idea that when one person or group with an argument repeats their opinion with the other party not accepting that argument does not mean that the first party is 'right by repetition'.

Sorry. I must point out these issues of logic.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134081 - 04/19/13 06:56 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
What I'm saying is that I have said 1000 times here that I don't claim to "know" that there is no god, or that god is "impossible." yet, you insist that "atheists say they know there isn't a god" No atheists say this (or very, very few). I should only have to tell you this once.

Anyone who is told something so many times and still doesn't understand either has a learning disorder, or is willfully misunderstanding the idea.




But can you show me evidence that only very few atheists say 'there is no god'? You may be a very conscious atheist and understand the position. (Withholding judgment.) Yet in my subjective experience, I admit, many self-proclaimed atheists  are less precise and do claim that god does not exist. Of course you could then argue that they are not atheists but something else, however, should we take into account their lack of understanding? I think not. IF a man claims to be an atheist I will take his word for it and assume he knows what that actually means, rather than doubting someone with such a specific claim, so specifically using that word.

So you make a claim to numbers which probbaly falls in one of these categories or types of logical fallacies or bad argumentations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: PsilyPhily]
    #18134229 - 04/19/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)


The only thing I was really going to say before was that you are arguing over terminology and that it was never getting you anywhere except off topic..


Look this is the way we like it at the shroomery. Otherwise all questions would have been resolved years and thousands of posts ago and we'd all have left and be looking at porn.  IMO everyone on these psychedelic drugs is an ego inflated slacker, including me. This is what we do best. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18134239 - 04/19/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

IF a man claims to be an atheist I will take his word for it and assume he knows

Kind of like when the guru says he can teach you about enlightenment. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18134783 - 04/19/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? (the answer is yes)

Of course, our brains are part of reality, and whatever delusions we have are definitely real.




The answer is not yes. If there is no one to hear the tree fall, then no one can really know if there was a sound or not.




Imagine the world hundreds of million years ago, before people.  You agree with me that there were in fact trees, correct?  And when those trees fell, they made sounds.  Or what if all of the people on the planet died suddenly, do you think that means that trees, or rocks, or everything else ceases to exist?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilyPhily
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 560
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134844 - 04/19/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Haha can I make a point about the tree is the forest,
If no one is there then there are no ears to create a message to send to the brain for the brain then to make a sound out of it..

That is not to say the tree doesn't fall..

If you look at Shrodingers cat it is in a box with poison, It can be seen as dead, alive or both and neither as without the knowledge gained from opening the box we simply can't know..

As far as this bull about atheists and moral codes..
That's just religious people being stupid saying that those without a god and defined rules to live by is a sinner but atheists makes there own rules and have a moral code of there own initiative..

If anything religion is the less morally guided as they are forced to be good so as to not be thrown into eternal damnation..

If I needed to be convinced not to sin by fear well doesn't that show lack of moral because it's not free will anymore..

Just a thought..

:mushroom2:Phil.


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: PsilyPhily]
    #18134865 - 04/19/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PsilyPhily said:
Haha can I make a point about the tree is the forest,
If no one is there then there are no ears to create a message to send to the brain for the brain then to make a sound out of it..





Do you know what sound is?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilyPhily
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 560
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134874 - 04/19/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Vibrations in the particles in the air..
Yes I study physics..

:mushroom2:Phil.


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: PsilyPhily]
    #18134885 - 04/19/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PsilyPhily said:
Vibrations in the particles in the air..
Yes I study physics..

:mushroom2:Phil.




Ok, well then I don't know why I should have to explain to someone who studies physics that sound occurs outside the brain.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/19/13 11:14 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFishOilTheKid
Ascended
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134907 - 04/19/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:tongue2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilyPhily
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 560
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18134918 - 04/19/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

er no..
Sound does not exist without a brain..

Otherwise it is just a vibration..
The brain translates the vibrations the bones in the ear receive into sound..
without a listener there is no sound..

There may be a squirrel in the forest which can hear but if the forest is void of life then no sound is made..


God damn some people are dumb..

:mushroom2:Phil.

Edit: I learned this when I was about 6 and if you are older than 16 and have lived without knowing that then, Well.. I don't know what to say..


--------------------
"If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment."
β€” Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
"Well Shulgin, you clearly haven't tried salvia 150X extract,
good effort though."

:mushroom2:Phil.


Edited by PsilyPhily (04/19/13 11:22 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < First | < Back | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | Next > | Last >

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Recent Oversaturation Of Christian God Shit Here...
( 1 2 3 all )
fireworks_godS 4,701 57 11/27/05 01:15 PM
by Gomp
* Drugs and Christianity shroomsbury 761 5 02/03/03 09:34 AM
by Demon
* why christianity is bullshit
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
KingOftheThing 24,570 161 04/24/11 05:50 PM
by Holy Bud
* I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment
( 1 2 3 4 all )
World Spirit 4,363 65 05/05/03 09:33 PM
by CosmicJoke
* Christian Rationalism. An answer ? MAIA 1,339 2 08/04/02 05:08 AM
by MAIA
* Atheist Website responds to Christian Letter
( 1 2 all )
Swami 4,129 20 06/22/03 03:55 PM
by Sclorch
* Christianity, Colonialism, Capitalism and Islam. atomikfunksoldier 2,017 14 07/14/03 07:44 AM
by gnrm23
* Atheism.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
evilchipmunk 8,013 90 07/26/04 09:58 AM
by Hanky

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
84,889 topic views. 3 members, 9 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 13 queries.