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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #18131698 - 04/18/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
believing in nothing at all is the only truly rational position

^^^ that.

Someone smarter than me once said:

Quote:

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -- Andre Gide




From what I can see in this thread and elsewhere, skeptics/atheists adhere to that adage and doubt everything. Doubt, by the way, is at the foundation of science and the scientific method even though believers constantly misconstrue science as a Faith when in fact science is systematic Doubt in everything.

Ironically it's only those same mystic-head and religious types who are convinced they've found truth. My guess is because this certainty in the face of reason gives them a warm fuzzy about their own impermanence/DA.





i agree. skepticism is just one aspect of a particular world-view which values doubt. a more philosophical way of understanding these values is to say that one may have beliefs, but of those beliefs one has a meta-belief that one's beliefs may be wrong. what erks me is that i see far too much cynicism being paraded as skepticism. i think this is a natural pit-fall of thinking which one can fall into when they value doubt, or if they become jaded by unsubstantiated beliefs of others and they're proselytizing.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131708 - 04/18/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
    #18131726 - 04/18/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Well why call yourself someone that doesn't think that there is a God, i.e. an Atheist and then qualify it with the provision that you're not sure?




Because I'm not sure of anything.  But I don't believe in god. Just like I don't believe in unicorns.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131739 - 04/18/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You don't have to be one or the other.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
    #18131745 - 04/18/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Well why call yourself someone that doesn't think that there is a God, i.e. an Atheist and then qualify it with the provision that you're not sure?





Cause most atheists aren't certain 100% and that jibes with the most popular definition.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131752 - 04/18/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist.





Doesn't make it logical though.  Absolute surety is an illogical positon no matter what the issue imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131753 - 04/18/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Well why call yourself someone that doesn't think that there is a God, i.e. an Atheist and then qualify it with the provision that you're not sure?





That's not what an atheist is.  Atheism refers to one's belief in, rather than the existance of, god.  To say your an atheist is to say you do not have a belief in god.  A newborn would be an atheist, as would someone who is convinced there is not god, as would someone who doesn't know if there's a god but doesn't believe in one.  Essentially all atheists are of the last type, including all the famous authors/speakers.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




Yes, but then that has nothing to do with atheism.  Included in atheism are people who are sure there is no god, and these people are irrational when applied to god in the general sense. This says nothing about the rationality of being an atheist, only of being a special kind of atheist (one that doesn't tend to exist in practice, I've never met one).


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131787 - 04/18/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

So your not really an atheist then . . . your agnostic atheist,

"Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact."

Quote:


Bertrand Russell uses the example of the celestial teapot. He argues that although it is impossible to know that the teapot does not exist, most people would not believe in it. Therefore, one's view with respect to the teapot would be an agnostic "ateapotist", because while they don't believe in the existence of the teapot, they don't claim to know for certain.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism





This is more closely related to agnosticism than it is related to atheism, imo. An ultimate conclusion steps into the polarity of belief and plagues the term "atheism".


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131793 - 04/18/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist.





Doesn't make it logical though.  Absolute surety is an illogical positon no matter what the issue imo.




Oops I made a typo, I mean
If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might not be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18131817 - 04/18/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This says nothing about the rationality of being an atheist, only of being a special kind of atheist (one that doesn't tend to exist in practice, I've never met one).

I've never met one either in 60 years. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131830 - 04/18/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist.





Doesn't make it logical though.  Absolute surety is an illogical positon no matter what the issue imo.




Oops I made a typo, I mean
If someone says they are 100% sure there is no god, that might not be a statement that most atheists would agree with. But this person is surely not a theist:shrug: Therefore they are an atheist




Yeah that makes more sense.
I guess I'm both atheist and agnostic. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131867 - 04/18/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So your not really an atheist then . . . your agnostic atheist,

"Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact."





In the first page of this thread, I said that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18131872 - 04/18/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

falcon said:
Well why call yourself someone that doesn't think that there is a God, i.e. an Atheist and then qualify it with the provision that you're not sure?





That's not what an atheist is.  Atheism refers to one's belief in, rather than the existance of, god.  To say your an atheist is to say you do not have a belief in god.  A newborn would be an atheist, as would someone who is convinced there is not god, as would someone who doesn't know if there's a god but doesn't believe in one.  Essentially all atheists are of the last type, including all the famous authors/speakers.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.




Yes, but then that has nothing to do with atheism.  Included in atheism are people who are sure there is no god, and these people are irrational when applied to god in the general sense. This says nothing about the rationality of being an atheist, only of being a special kind of atheist (one that doesn't tend to exist in practice, I've never met one).




That's why they have the term agnostic atheist, because your position isn't really atheist.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131876 - 04/18/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
So your not really an atheist then . . . your agnostic atheist,

"Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact."





In the first page of this thread, I said that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.





Your position isn't atheist either, so wtf are you arguing atheism is the only rational one for? Your position is particular and special mix of atheism and agnosticism. Yet you call it atheism, which includes the conclusive.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131897 - 04/18/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This is the longest running thread I can remember here. :whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131905 - 04/18/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
That's why they have the term agnostic atheist, because your position isn't really atheist.




I can't believe we're going in this circle. This goes back to..page 20? 

I would call myself an atoothfairyest as well, because I haven't seen evidence for the tooth fairy. But I don't get people saying "how do you know there's no tooth fairy".  We don't have to "disbelieve" in something in order to not specifically believe in it.  it's just a non -issue, like the tooth fairy is a non issue.  Maybe there is a tooth fairy. So what?

I'm an atoothfairyest
I'm an abigfootist,
I'm an leprechaunist
and I'm an atheist

Do you want proof there aren't leprechauns?

This is a very simple concept to understand.  And I'm sure you have the mental capacity to understand it.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131912 - 04/18/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You have to say god doesn't exist to claim atheism, sry!

:shrug:


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131921 - 04/18/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
You have to say god doesn't exist to claim atheism, sry!

:shrug:




Ok
toothfairies don't exist
leprechauns don't exist
King kong doesn't exist
God doesn't exist


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131926 - 04/18/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

According to the dictionary you only have to say that you don't "believe" there is a god.  Not that you know or are sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131928 - 04/18/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
That's why they have the term agnostic atheist, because your position isn't really atheist.




I can't believe we're going in this circle. This goes back to..page 20? 

I would call myself an atoothfairyest as well, because I haven't seen evidence for the tooth fairy. But I don't get people saying "how do you know there's no tooth fairy".  We don't have to "disbelieve" in something in order to not specifically believe in it.  it's just a non -issue, like the tooth fairy is a non issue.  Maybe there is a tooth fairy. So what?

I'm an atoothfairyest
I'm an abigfootist,
I'm an leprechaunist
and I'm an atheist

Do you want proof there aren't leprechauns?

This is a very simple concept to understand.  And I'm sure you have the mental capacity to understand it.




And these are analogies of your little sample population of earth. Therefore they are bad analogies when considering the universe and all reality.


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