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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
    #18131244 - 04/18/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
This rule,

You are free to present pretty much anything philosophical that you want to put up for consideration - you can even espouse ideas most people would find ludicrous or repugnant. What you can't do is attack the person making the ludicrous or repugnant statements. You can bring to bear all your rhetorical skills and articulate arguments in an attempt to expose the idea under discussion as ludicrous, repugnant or whatever - as a matter of fact you are encouraged to do so - but the acceptable method is to direct all your weaponry at the IDEA being presented, not at the person presenting the idea.

Seemed personalismlike to me, not owning up to it, Priceless.





You also don't know what a personalism is via the rules here.  Go ahead, flag it and see what happens and we can all learn something. That is if you want to learn something.

I didn't make these rules, I just play by them. 


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131267 - 04/18/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

falcon said:
This rule,

You are free to present pretty much anything philosophical that you want to put up for consideration - you can even espouse ideas most people would find ludicrous or repugnant. What you can't do is attack the person making the ludicrous or repugnant statements. You can bring to bear all your rhetorical skills and articulate arguments in an attempt to expose the idea under discussion as ludicrous, repugnant or whatever - as a matter of fact you are encouraged to do so - but the acceptable method is to direct all your weaponry at the IDEA being presented, not at the person presenting the idea.

Seemed personalismlike to me, not owning up to it, Priceless.





You also don't know what a personalism is via the rules here.  Go ahead, flag it and see what happens and we can all learn something. That is if you want to learn something.

I didn't make these rules, I just play by them. 




So did you sleep at a holiday inn last night or you playing pretend mod, and think that equates to god and ultimate reality? I know the mod wouldn't do shit about it, so flagging would be a waste of time, but that doesn't take away from the fact.

Srsly, debate the issue in OP or gtfo, I don't care about your opinion nor does it matter.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131281 - 04/18/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

He won't do anything about it because it's not a violation of the rules of this forum. :lol: 

You think if I flagged it he would?  Dream on.  He's bound by the same rules we all are here.  To expect him to brake them for you would be pretty creepy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131435 - 04/18/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

falcon said:
This rule,

You are free to present pretty much anything philosophical that you want to put up for consideration - you can even espouse ideas most people would find ludicrous or repugnant. What you can't do is attack the person making the ludicrous or repugnant statements. You can bring to bear all your rhetorical skills and articulate arguments in an attempt to expose the idea under discussion as ludicrous, repugnant or whatever - as a matter of fact you are encouraged to do so - but the acceptable method is to direct all your weaponry at the IDEA being presented, not at the person presenting the idea.

Seemed personalismlike to me, not owning up to it, Priceless.





You also don't know what a personalism is via the rules here.  Go ahead, flag it and see what happens and we can all learn something. That is if you want to learn something.

I didn't make these rules, I just play by them. 




So did you sleep at a holiday inn last night or you playing pretend mod, and think that equates to god and ultimate reality? I know the mod wouldn't do shit about it, so flagging would be a waste of time, but that doesn't take away from the fact.

Srsly, debate the issue in OP or gtfo, I don't care about your opinion nor does it matter.




teknix, stop complaining about this and get back on topic.

Diploid isn't online right now, so either send him a private message/notification and try and get satisfaction on your complaint/rules interpretation issues or just drop it.  Back on topic, please.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #18131438 - 04/18/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I've been trying to do that, thanks for the help!

The claim of this thread has the burden of proof, and there is no proof (let alone evidence) for the claim, get it? The only option is an appeal to ignorance.

Quote:


An argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is an inference that a proposition P is false from the fact that P is not proved to be true or known to be true.[2][1] Arguments from ignorance are based on the absence of evidence and may fail because the lack of evidence for P does not prove P to be false.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance





GG ULOSE!


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131451 - 04/18/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I can't believe you guys are still talking about this.  I already said that I'm sure you don't have a learning disorder, teknix, but that you probably just choose not to listen. (or choose not to understand) :shrug:


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 07:31 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131471 - 04/18/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
I can't believe you guys are still talking about this.  I already said that I'm sure you don't have a learning disorder, teknix, but that you probably just choose not to listen. (or choose not to understand) :shrug:





That isn't an argument, because I argue in opposition to your claim has nothing to do with me. Understanding doesn't have anything to do with it, you think it impossible to disagree?

You have no evidence to back up your claim, therefore it isn't rational.


Edited by teknix (04/18/13 07:37 PM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131488 - 04/18/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

but that you probably just choose not to listen.
Nice try, so he doesn't see your point of view, with the implication that it's the right point of veiw, because he's not listening.

Quote:


Ad Hominem (Argument to the Man)

Attacking the person instead of attacking his argument. For example, "Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler." Which is true, but that doesn't make them worthless.  An embezzler can put forth a valid argument just like an honest person can.

A common form is an attack on sincerity. For example, "How can you argue for vegetarianism when you wear leather shoes?" The two wrongs make a right fallacy is related. The debate is about vegetarianism. That the arguer wears leather is irrelevant. Wearing leather does not somehow transform someone's argument from valid to invalid, unless the debate is specifically about the type of shoes the arguer wears.

A variation (related to Argument By Generalization) is to attack a whole class of people. For example, "Evolutionary biology is a sinister tool of the materialistic, atheistic religion of Secular Humanism." Similarly, one notorious net.kook waved away a whole category of evidence by announcing "All the scientists were drunk." A drunk can present valid evidence because the validity of the evidence stands on its own and does not hinge on the person presenting it.

Another variation is attack by innuendo: "Why don't scientists tell us what they really know; are they afraid of public panic?" The suggestion that the scientists know more than they're letting on is pure speculation and says nothing about the evidence presented one way or another.

There may be a pretense that the attack isn't happening: "In order to maintain a civil debate, I will not mention my opponent's drinking problem." Unless the topic being debated is the opponent's drinking, mentioning it is as irrelevant as commenting that his tie is ugly.

Sometimes the attack is on intelligence. For example, "If you weren't so stupid you would have no problem seeing my point of view." Or, a dismissing sarcastic comment like "Well, you're just smarter than the rest of us."

An important exception is that Ad Hominem is not fallacious if the attack goes to the credibility of the argument itself. For instance, the argument may depend on its presenter's claim that he's an expert. This is an Appeal to Authority which is often, but not always, fallacious. Trial judges allow this category of attacks. In this very narrow case, the Ad Hominem is valid because the foundation of the counter-argument is the opponent making claims based on his status as an expert, and therefore the personal attack questioning his expert status is valid.




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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131519 - 04/18/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

What I'm saying is that I have said 1000 times here that I don't claim to "know" that there is no god, or that god is "impossible." yet, you insist that "atheists say they know there isn't a god" No atheists say this (or very, very few). I should only have to tell you this once.

Anyone who is told something so many times and still doesn't understand either has a learning disorder, or is willfully misunderstanding the idea.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131524 - 04/18/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
What I'm saying is that I have said 1000 times here that I don't claim to "know" that there is no god, or that god is "impossible." yet, you insist that "atheists say they know there isn't a god" No atheists say this (or very, very few). I should only have to tell you this once.

Anyone who is told something so many times and still doesn't understand either has a learning disorder, or is willfully misunderstanding the idea.





Yet Atheism includes the stance or position in certainty, and therefore must not be the rational one . . .


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
    #18131528 - 04/18/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
but that you probably just choose not to listen.
Nice try, so he doesn't see your point of view, with the implication that it's the right point of veiw, because he's not listening.






No. This has nothing to do with opinions, or points of view.  This has to do with facts.  Teknix is entitled to his own opinions, but the fact is that the vast majority of atheists don't claim to "know" there is no god.  That is a fact about atheists.  I'm trying to inform Teknix of this, and he refuses to listen/understand.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 07:44 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131544 - 04/18/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

falcon said:
but that you probably just choose not to listen.
Nice try, so he doesn't see your point of view, with the implication that it's the right point of veiw, because he's not listening.






No. This has nothing to do with opinions, or points of view.  This has to do with facts.  Teknix is entitled to his own opinions, but the fact is that the vast majority of atheists don't claim to "know" there is no god.  That is a fact about atheists.  I'm trying to inform Teknix of this, and he refuses to listen/understand.




ROFL, you keep doing it.

:tard:

(and I'm the one with a learning disability?)

:facepalm:


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131554 - 04/18/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Yet Atheism includes the stance or position in certainty, and therefore must not be the rational one . . .




No it doesn't. This is exactly my point. No matter how many times I explain to teknix what atheism is, he insists on saying it's something else.  All he has to do is say "oh, I get it - atheists don't say they're 'certain' there's no god." And then we can move on.  But I have a feeling that's not going to happen.  Teknix will keep spreading falsehoods about atheists, no matter how many atheists tell him otherwise.

At a certain point, it's just dishonest.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 07:49 PM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131569 - 04/18/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

So most people that claim to be atheists aren't sure that they are.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131570 - 04/18/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Yet Atheism includes the stance or position in certainty, and therefore must not be the rational one . . .




No it doesn't. This is exactly my point. No matter how many times I explain to teknix what atheism is, he insists on saying it's something else.  All he has to do is say "oh, I get it - atheists don't say they're 'certain' there's no god." And then we can move on.  But I have a feeling that's not going to happen.  Teknix will keep spreading falsehoods about atheists, no matter how many atheists tell him otherwise.

At a certain point, it's just dishonest.





You can't say that, because some atheist do say for certain. Atheism as a whole includes people who hold that stance, and therefore can be critiqued by that.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
    #18131634 - 04/18/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
So most people that claim to be atheists aren't sure that they are.




???
They're sure they're atheists. But atheists aren't "certain" there is no god (most of them anyway).


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] * 1
    #18131638 - 04/18/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
So most people that claim to be atheists aren't sure that they are.





No, most people that claim to be atheists aren't sure that there is no god.  To be sure your an atheist is to be sure you don't believe in god- it does not ential a position on the possibility of god's existance or his existance in fact, only your belief with regards to it.

This is the point teknix has been instructed on without reubttal for months now.  I agree with clam dude- he's being deliberately obtuse in his posting.  I don't think he's posting in good faith anymore, personally.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131649 - 04/18/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Then why include those that do claim certainty for atheism?

(I don't because I'm agnostic, the conclusion ultimately decides your stance and is the Occam's Razor version to cut out all the static.)

Atheism as a whole can't be both conclusive and inconclusive, because those are mutually exclusive.

The argument is that there is no evidence for the conclusive side, either-way. (which is included in Atheism)


Edited by teknix (04/18/13 08:09 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18131680 - 04/18/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Actually you might have a point here.  The 100% assurance there is no god is illogical imo.  So if atheists include this group as members at least part of that stance is illogical.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18131693 - 04/18/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Well why call yourself someone that doesn't think that there is a God, i.e. an Atheist and then qualify it with the provision that you're not sure?


Edited by falcon (04/18/13 08:09 PM)


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