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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18128890 - 04/18/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

The only way we could begin to describe god would have to be in metaphor with things we know, and the greatest thing we know is the universe.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18128898 - 04/18/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?




There is a link between atheism and human conduct. Just like there is a link between a religion and a man his conduct.

Most people claim what you claim, that there is no link between very bad conduct and what they believe in. You say it is of no relevance that Stalin e.g. was an atheist, but do you claim that there is no link between crusaders Robert of Normandy or Bernard of Clairvaux and religion?

Of course there is. Both find justification for cruelty in what they believe to be ultimately true.

All you do is make a logical mistake here: because both the atheist and religious man commit violence, there can be no link between what they believe in. But as I showed you, this is not true, because both people find justification to commit violence as part of their worldview.

In the case of the atheist, since he doesn't believe in after death judgment, it may be easier to sign an order to move entire peoples to another area. The religious crusader may feel judgment, but he does it because it is also righteous to kill heretics. 

The atheist believes in no gods and therefore might feel powerful as a man on Earth and be the highest authority. And for this reason makes decisions that harm others, for their own best intentions no doubt. The crusader acts in accordance with the rules of god and as a servant of god must save lost souls by putting hte blade to them, so they repent in the last moment, to save their souls.

The atheist in his worldly way organizes society ruthlessly, the crusader ruthlessly enforces spiritual organization. They both operate in their own realm, society in the name of improvement and a better way of material life, wealth as a goal and spiritual life as an improvement, wellbeing as the goal.

To understand a Stalin, Pol Pot, a Hitler is to understand what they believed in. It is always relevant. No one should ever again argue that 'it doesn't matter'.




If someone believes that there is a god who wants them to kill infidels, that is a very clear reason why someone who believes in this god might go and commit violent acts.  How on earth can someone's lack of belief in something make them go and commit atrocities. 

According to you, no matter what anyone believes about anything, that could be a cause for violence.  But just because one belief system might be a cause for violence doesn't mean all belief systems are.  Even some religions - such as Jainism promote the opposite of violence.  There is no way that you're going to find a Jain ruler who kills his/her own people.  So yes, some specific religions promote violence. It's right there in the holy book.  So don't tell me that because I lack the ridiculous belief that some violent holy book is literally the word of god, that my beliefs are also a potential cause for violence.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 10:47 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18128910 - 04/18/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
1st point is that if only half of the brain is logical, then to utilize optimal capacity, creativity and expression are a vital element.

2nd point is the absence of evidence for a claim is not evidence against.

3rd science works within probabilistic means, and not certainty.

4th There is not a 99.99999% probable explanation for totality.

5th All the seemingly promising theories of everything leaves room for multiple dimensions, universe, and even individual mutually exclusive perspectives of simultaneous events.

6th You use science as a crutch to defend your position, and claim a null hypothesis as your hypothesis, when a null hypothesis is just a product of the scientific process being opposite of your prediction.

There were tons of points, but the most important is that you guys are using bias and personal feeling above logic and rationale to create your personal reality and imposing it on others. People can use god and not be wrong in fact.

Holding, grasping, owning a belief (attachement) that isn't representive of anything other than what is observable personally, is ultimately creating bias.

Another point is that since God cannot be quantified then probably nothing could be said generally about god.




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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #18128961 - 04/18/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I'll also say this:

There are two ways in which I have heard it argued that people need god to be moral:

The first is that people need to fear the great video camera in the sky.  If you think someone is watching your every move, and has the power to send you to hell for sinning, then you'll obey the rules.  But just think about this for a minute - if the only reason that you don't go around raping stealing is that you think you're being watched , does this make you a moral person? I once watched a debate between an atheist and a christian in which the atheist got the christian to say that he would go around raping and stealing if he no longer believed in god.  Of course, the christian had to say this in order to be consistent. I don't think he actually would do those things.  Ask yourself this as well - would you go around raping and stealing if you stopped believing?  I don't think so - why not? Well because we all have an innate sense of morality. And that brings me to the next reason.

2:I have also heard it argued that god gives us an innate sense of morality.  In another debate, a theist said that his atheist opponent was also a moral person - because god makes everyone moral, weather they believe in him or not.  If that is the case, then who cares if I, or anyone, believes in god?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 11:03 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18128990 - 04/18/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

  because it is directed at the person and a rhetorical question meant to be-little the target.

Except you don't know any of that. You don't know his intent in asking a question.  So if you flag it no one will act via the forum rules and guidelines.  If you have an issue then flag it and see for yourself. Otherwise it's off topic to this discussion and a waste of time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #18129009 - 04/18/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This idea of "too much rationality" is an absurd notion.  What is the flip-side of rationality? Irrationality? So we want more irrationality?

I had a similar debate with someone who kept saying that many atrocities had been "rationalized" one way or another - Implying that "rationality" was at fault.

I wish I had thought of the proper response during the debate, but unfortunately, at the time, it put me in my place.  But as I realized later, the word "rationalize" means something different altogether than "rational".  In common use, "rationalize" is what people do when they don't have a good reason to do something. 

If someone says Hitler "rationalized" the holocaust in such and such a way, the implication is "because he had no good reason, he rationalized it in such and such a way. "  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't even think of a usage of the word "rationalize" in which this isn't then implication.

Basically, if a decision isn't rational, then it must be "rationalized" somehow.  And so it implies the opposite of rational thinking.  I think that the word  has been misused to argue against rational thinking. 

What do you propose as an alternative to rationality? Irrationality?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (04/18/13 11:17 AM)


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #18129059 - 04/18/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


You say it is of no relevance that Stalin e.g. was an atheist, but do you claim that there is no link between crusaders Robert of Normandy or Bernard of Clairvaux and religion?

Of course there is. Both find justification for cruelty in what they believe to be ultimately true.





My point is that Stalin's reasons couldn't have possibly been that he didn't believe in "god". How is a lack of belief in something justification for killing people?  Violence is encouraged in the GODDAMN HOLY BOOK ITSELF! And so to say that a lack of belief in this idiotic nonsense is also a reason to commit violent acts, is absurd.  Stalin may have found reasons, or "rationalized" what he did, but it's obvious to any intelligent person that atheism itself is not one of those reasons.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Chronic7]
    #18129110 - 04/18/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

believing in nothing at all is the only truly rational position

^^^ that.

Someone smarter than me once said:

Quote:

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -- Andre Gide




From what I can see in this thread and elsewhere, skeptics/atheists adhere to that adage and doubt everything. Doubt, by the way, is at the foundation of science and the scientific method even though believers constantly misconstrue science as a Faith when in fact science is systematic Doubt in everything.

Ironically it's only those same mystic-head and religious types who are convinced they've found truth. My guess is because this certainty in the face of reason gives them a warm fuzzy about their own impermanence/DA.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18129134 - 04/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:The atheist in his worldly way organizes society ruthlessly, the crusader ruthlessly enforces spiritual organization. They both operate in their own realm, society in the name of improvement and a better way of material life, wealth as a goal and spiritual life as an improvement, wellbeing as the goal.





You need to take a look at the world around you. Countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, etc... are the world's most atheistic countries, and they also have some of the highest standards of living.  Stop using quasi-religious regimes, such as Stalin's Russia as examples of secular ones.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen] * 2
    #18129167 - 04/18/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
f you alter that brain chemistry by introducing some compound you alter the overall chemistry. Instead of serotonine or some other thing connecting to a receptor, the flood of DMT pushes that out of the way and connects instead. And your perception of reality changes. How is that not real?




This has been covered many times in the thread.  How on earth do you manage to confuse a perception of reality with reality itself?




To me there is no difference.




It doesn't matter what you think. They are not the same thing.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? (the answer is yes)

Of course, our brains are part of reality, and whatever delusions we have are definitely real.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18130629 - 04/18/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
  because it is directed at the person and a rhetorical question meant to be-little the target.

Except you don't know any of that. You don't know his intent in asking a question.  So if you flag it no one will act via the forum rules and guidelines.  If you have an issue then flag it and see for yourself. Otherwise it's off topic to this discussion and a waste of time.




Doesn't matter what his intent is, it is an attempt at discrediting the arguer on grounds of a learning disability and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Plain as day ad hominem.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18130664 - 04/18/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Intent obviously matters in a situation where you're accusing someone of attacking or trying to belittle you. He was seriously asking because of how many times you've misinterpreted things and asked the same irrelevant and already exhausted questions time and time again.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18130706 - 04/18/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
  because it is directed at the person and a rhetorical question meant to be-little the target.

Except you don't know any of that. You don't know his intent in asking a question.  So if you flag it no one will act via the forum rules and guidelines.  If you have an issue then flag it and see for yourself. Otherwise it's off topic to this discussion and a waste of time.




Doesn't matter what his intent is, it is an attempt at discrediting the arguer on grounds of a learning disability and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Plain as day ad hominem.





So it's not a personalism like I said.  When are you  going to learn what the forum guidelines are and play by them or leave. Or at least stfu with the whining.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131055 - 04/18/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
  because it is directed at the person and a rhetorical question meant to be-little the target.

Except you don't know any of that. You don't know his intent in asking a question.  So if you flag it no one will act via the forum rules and guidelines.  If you have an issue then flag it and see for yourself. Otherwise it's off topic to this discussion and a waste of time.




Doesn't matter what his intent is, it is an attempt at discrediting the arguer on grounds of a learning disability and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Plain as day ad hominem.





So it's not a personalism like I said.  When are you  going to learn what the forum guidelines are and play by them or leave. Or at least stfu with the whining.




I wasn't even the one to point it out, so I doubt I'm the only one that sees through your bs, it was presented as the only option, not even a false dichotomy, but a false monochotomy at the person.

You are telling me the person to quit whining, that has nothing to do with the argument, so you too are guilty. You are also insinuating that I "the person" am a whiner. You guys don't want to debate the issue because the only thing left for clam is to recant the position in the entirety.


Edited by teknix (04/18/13 06:22 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18131157 - 04/18/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Intent obviously matters in a situation where you're accusing someone of attacking or trying to belittle you. He was seriously asking because of how many times you've misinterpreted things and asked the same irrelevant and already exhausted questions time and time again.




Srsly, think about it for a minute, why would you say that to someone, then put them on ignore and after you state they don't understand?

The claim of this thread has the burden of proof, and there is no proof (let alone evidence) for the claim, get it? The only option is an appeal to ignorance.

Quote:


An argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is an inference that a proposition P is false from the fact that P is not proved to be true or known to be true.[2][1] Arguments from ignorance are based on the absence of evidence and may fail because the lack of evidence for P does not prove P to be false.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance





Such brazen claims you make without evidence.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18131188 - 04/18/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
  because it is directed at the person and a rhetorical question meant to be-little the target.

Except you don't know any of that. You don't know his intent in asking a question.  So if you flag it no one will act via the forum rules and guidelines.  If you have an issue then flag it and see for yourself. Otherwise it's off topic to this discussion and a waste of time.




Doesn't matter what his intent is, it is an attempt at discrediting the arguer on grounds of a learning disability and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Plain as day ad hominem.





So it's not a personalism like I said.  When are you  going to learn what the forum guidelines are and play by them or leave. Or at least stfu with the whining.




I wasn't even the one to point it out, so I doubt I'm the only one that sees through your bs, it was presented as the only option, not even a false dichotomy, but a false monochotomy at the person.

You are telling me the person to quit whining, that has nothing to do with the argument, so you too are guilty. You are also insinuating that I "the person" am a whiner. You guys don't want to debate the issue because the only thing left for clam is to recant the position in the entirety.




It's not a personalism. You don't even know what that is as per forum rules. Read the rules and play by them.  That's the only requirement for posting here unless you're under age.  My god man how many times must something this basic be explained to you. Can you blame some for wondering about your comprehension abilities. I wonder.

If you have a problem and you think it violates forum rules you can flag it  and have it taken care of. The fact is that you don't. Why is that?  I mean if this stuff bothers you then do something constructive about it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131200 - 04/18/13 06:44 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
I wasn't even the one to point it out, so I doubt I'm the only one that sees through your bs, it was presented as the only option, not even a false dichotomy, but a false monochotomy at the person.

You are telling me the person to quit whining, that has nothing to do with the argument, so you too are guilty. You are also insinuating that I "the person" am a whiner. You guys don't want to debate the issue because the only thing left for clam is to recant the position in the entirety.




It's not a personalism. You don't even know what that is as per forum rules. Read the rules and play by them.  That's the only requirement for posting here unless you're under age.  My god man how many times must something this basic be explained to you. Can you blame some for wondering about your comprehension abilities.




Seems like your arguments revolve around me, debate the issue or gtfo, because I really DGAF about it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18131216 - 04/18/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You obviously do care. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131220 - 04/18/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This rule,

You are free to present pretty much anything philosophical that you want to put up for consideration - you can even espouse ideas most people would find ludicrous or repugnant. What you can't do is attack the person making the ludicrous or repugnant statements. You can bring to bear all your rhetorical skills and articulate arguments in an attempt to expose the idea under discussion as ludicrous, repugnant or whatever - as a matter of fact you are encouraged to do so - but the acceptable method is to direct all your weaponry at the IDEA being presented, not at the person presenting the idea.

Seemed personalismlike to me, not owning up to it, Priceless.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18131225 - 04/18/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:heart:


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