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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786353 - 02/11/13 10:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Please fucking tell me you are trolling.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786354 - 02/11/13 10:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

If a mother kills her infant right now, and says it was her right, then ultimately it was. Regardless what we think or say or do about it, the outcome is the same.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786358 - 02/11/13 10:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If a baby kills an infant right now, and say it was her right, then ultimately it was. Regardless what we think or say or do about it, the outcome is the same.




Exactly. Proved my point again.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786363 - 02/11/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What point is that? The baby didn't have any rights beyond what the mother gave to it?


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786364 - 02/11/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If a mother kills her infant right now, and says it was her right, then ultimately it was. Regardless what we think or say or do about it, the outcome is the same.




Lol you changed it. Let me fix it for you.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786371 - 02/11/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What point is that?




That it doesn't matter if the right is recognized by the court of law, or if someone simply just says it.

A mother can physically kill a baby. End of story.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786380 - 02/11/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What point is that? The baby didn't have any rights beyond what the mother gave to it?




Because the mother killed it. But the baby had rights. It just couldn't physically fight back. If that mother tried to kill me as an adult, then I have the right to fight back PLUS I can physically fight back.

It's a matter that I protected my life (that has natural rights with it) and thus preserved it.

The baby HAD rights, but couldn't physically defend himself, so he died. Thus ending his existence thus the rights were terminated.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:26 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786398 - 02/11/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What gave the baby rights though?

Obviously, if it did have rights, it doesn't now if it is dead.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786410 - 02/11/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What gave the baby rights though?




The fact that it existed.

No one has to pass a law for people to breathe. People naturally have the right to breathe. Simple as that.

Natural life came before man made law. Everything would cease to exist if that weren't the case.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:33 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786418 - 02/11/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

So should we give our grass the same consideration before we mow the lawn?


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786427 - 02/11/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So should we give our grass the same consideration before we mow the lawn?




They have a right to live. But we are more capable. More intelligent and physically stronger. Therefore we impose our will on them and mow it.

But that doesn't effect their right to live. We can kill them. But their rights either stand, or they go away if they cease to live. Only because they no longer exist and therefore their rights don't either. No more no less than that.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:37 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786448 - 02/11/13 10:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Doesn't seem like those kinda rights hold any power. You are claiming the rights for them, or imbuing the rights to the grass. They don't really have rights. That's why we can hunt deer, because they can't say "Don't shoot me". If dolphins could communicate they would have rights.

The most obvious one would be to eat fish.

Clean fish, and then the oil companies would get sued for violating the rights of the dolphins to has clean and tasty fishes.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786573 - 02/11/13 11:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
RIGHTS:

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.[1] Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights




I never said you were incorrect about the man made rights. But it has no bearing in this discussion. We were talking about NATURAL babies and NATURAL thought process of infants. Legal systems have no bearing on that.

So I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

The legal system of any country has no say whether a baby is able to have concepts of anything. That's all biological etc. NOT LEGAL SYSTEM BASED.




You are wrong, why do you think abortion laws are the way they are? Because biologically the baby is a parasite to a mother before the third trimester. It is not an individual being yet. Why shouldn't the woman have the right to get rid of it?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786584 - 02/11/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I take it a step further and consider the totality of the dependence the baby has on the caretaker. It isn't viable on its own for quite a while.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786585 - 02/11/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Doesn't seem like those kinda rights hold any power. You are claiming the rights for them, or imbuing the rights to the grass. They don't really have rights. That's why we can hunt deer, because they can't say "Don't shoot me". If dolphins could communicate they would have rights.

The most obvious one would be to eat fish.

Clean fish, and then the oil companies would get sued for violating the rights of the dolphins to has clean and tasty fishes.




You give too much power to man made legal systems. They only work because they can physically and sometimes mentally impose their will.

Your deer point is easily destroyed just by the fact that people kill other people for no reason.

Could the victims talk? Yes.

Were they human and had rights under a government? Yes.

Did the law prevent them from being murdered? No.

Easily destroyed.

Now Natural Law:

Humans and everything have rights. Humans have the ability to kill.

Human A kills Human B.

Human A through skill, technique, physical and biological laws and unforseen circumstances killed Human B.

Both had rights. One just killed the other. Human B no longer exists. His rights are then gone with him.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786596 - 02/11/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

No, people killing other people isn't considered a right by us, because people claim the right to not be shot or killed. In war it is different, because you are generally denying yourself that right.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786599 - 02/11/13 11:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
RIGHTS:

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.[1] Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights




I never said you were incorrect about the man made rights. But it has no bearing in this discussion. We were talking about NATURAL babies and NATURAL thought process of infants. Legal systems have no bearing on that.

So I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

The legal system of any country has no say whether a baby is able to have concepts of anything. That's all biological etc. NOT LEGAL SYSTEM BASED.




You are wrong, why do you think abortion laws are the way they are? Because biologically the baby is a parasite to a mother before the third trimester. It is not an individual being yet. Why shouldn't the woman have the right to get rid of it?




Never said she didn't. It's just the way you word it.

Mother kills baby.

Okay.

But you say that the baby never had rights, legal or natural.

I realize the baby didn't have legal rights but it did have natural rights. But the baby wasn't able to physically defend itself. Therefore it is gone.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786604 - 02/11/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
No, people killing other people isn't considered a right by us, because people claim the right to not be shot or killed. In war it is different, because you are generally denying yourself that right.




That's why your whole man made law argument is pathetic. Just because it is made a law by us, doesn't mean it can't still happen. Even if you claim the right to not be shot, you can still be shot. War or not.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 11:11 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786605 - 02/11/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The baby is dependent upon the mother and hasn't a voice to have rights.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786614 - 02/11/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Rights are what we discover throughout history and living. God doesn't give you rights magically, you have to take them and claim them as we have throughout history.

You don't think we can find the rights to make them laws? Why do they seem to coincide with justice so often?


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