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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
    #18121883 - 04/17/13 02:12 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to get through to closed minded people. Ie the time I spend on here making efforts and such? In a way sometimes challengers from debunkers sharpen my act in that I will find further research courses etc. There is also the this: when you talk to someone, that person is not JUST one level of being. They think they are--some do, especially the closedminds. There are deeper levels they aint aware of, and those are the parts I seek to reach. NOT to manipulate them for nefarious means like some powers that be do, but to enrich. Just hoping some seeds connect somewhere. That is what keeps me trying. lol




I understand what you are saying. I recognize it.

But let's explore this together and see if we can find some idea about why this is the case. And let's tie it in with the topic at hand, atheism.

Let me first give you the Tarot. It is supposed to be a form of divination but it is based on a person's path through life. All our lives have similarities. The Major Arcana has cards that show aspects of it. All combined they can show many variances of a life cycle.

You could say that all of us go through these different stages in life. We are born, we go to school, we find work, we find a partner, we have a career, we retire, we enjoy our pension, we die. Similarly throughout this cycle we come to in creasing levels of wisdom and insight. I recognize this in my own life. I ain't no pup anymore and it keeps amazing me how my perspective changes with the years. Is this how my father experienced it as well? It must be so.

So all of us here debating various issues are at different stages of our life that are associable with mental states or mental abilities of comprehension. This is not, in my view, a linera progression from being very unaware as a child to being very wise at old age. It seems to me that children have a wonderful ability we lose with time, the power of imagination. We may play with a child but we can never truly get into that mindset again.

Adolescents, teens, that stage in life also comes with certain attitudes and idea that older people often have trouble getting into. They embrace new ideas, technologies, lifestyles much easier than older people do.

So our lives have graph-lines going up on a scale of wisdom and lines  that go down. The collision between ideas we share here is a result of being at different points along the cycle of our lives. This you see reflected in stages of initiation in esoteric schools. With each new level reached you are considered to have understood some insight.

Atheism is a principle that might be associable with a certain  stage along our life cycle. At some point we all entertain this idea.

From wikipedia:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist."


When you write how hard it is to speak to debunkers, how difficult it is to get on on the page with some individuals, the reason could very well be that they are at a stage where the idea of some deity to be real is not according to the point in their life cycle, plausible. What the mind can handle, cope with, reflect upon, consider or entertain etc. could just be a result of the measure of progression along their life cycle.

You could take 'The Hermit' in the Major Arcana as an example. The interpretation is along the lines of introspection, inner search, deep understanding. I feel closely connected to those notions. I guess I am at least for a big part in that stage of my cycle. The Hermit does not seem to be aligned with atheism. So which card would have that association?

Maybe The Devil. It is associated with material domination over the mind. Emotions do not go with understanding, binding to the Earthly matters. Or maybe The Sun, interpreted as having talents and Earthly happiness, can achieve success in art and science, enjoyment of simple life. There are some other cards that may be partly relevant.

So all we might be able to accomplish is push people into a new card by offering new perspectives. But they can only accept these new truths when they are ready for it. Some people might gets tuck in typical thinking forever though. That is the point where someone finds himself in a relationship that doesn't work and they don't know why. One partner is moving on into new perspectives where the other lags behind.

I think in normal circumstances if you wait long enough, people will awaken to these new possibilities: where at first the idea of a god seems preposterous, in the new stage of life the notion isn't so far fetched. And not necessarily in the sense that god is suddenly real, but in a more metaphysical way, where once there were these solid immovable systems of believe and ideas about reality, there is more room for open minded contemplation, without prejudgment. Going from the hard, factual and logical reasoning into a softer, intuitive style.

So I hope you liked this attempt to bring a novel perspective to your train of thought. :smile: Let me know if there is any worth to it in your opinion?


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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

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Loc: Europe
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18121920 - 04/17/13 02:31 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
You cannot think about thinking. :idea: Think about it :-)

I don't know where in the world you get this notion, but anyone who can't think about thinking has a cognitive deficit. Most children start thinking about thinking when they're just starting to develop reason. Even retards can do it. Hell, I suspect even some of the higher non-human animals can do it too.

If you can't, see a doctor, perhaps? :ohwell:




Hey man, you can't play music about music...just think about it maaan :jah:




Oooh! I like that one. Very wise!

As to your other reply to me... Nonsensicalness has its own merit. The problem is not where you think it lies. The problem lies within you, specifically in the way you look out of your eyes from a scientific perspective. From that point of view anything that does not...comply to the standards of scientific inquiry is suspect.

But let's just let go of that idea that only science can hold the ultimate yardstick to reality. Suddenly there are other ways of logical reasoning. But if you only look at the world from one perspective, you see with half a mind.

What is real is not ultimately a matter of materialist science. If you go back and study the history of science you will see that in previous centuries, people though in very different ways about reality. They were carrying this culture of style that was deeply embeded within their way of thinking. Why should it be different now?

All you have to agree upon is that our cirrent mindset pertaining to science, what it is, what it can do, what it is for, how to use it, is but the latest fad in scientific thinking and that likely, it will not be the last.

Looking at the TEDx controverse about Graham Hancock and Rupert Sheldrake we see many people commenting on the darker side of scientism. It no longer satisfied many people. And those whos tick to this dogmatic 20th century model of science are getting a lot of flack. Within the next 50 years, if peak oil and climate change don't make scientific research much harder, science will look very different.

The whole field of quantum research coupled with consciousness is one aspect of a new way iof thinking about reality. And reality need not be only this rational, dogmatic, focused on matter in all forms, in effect, it need not be atheist in principle. I foresee that what I promote in many of my posts, that science will merge with belief. To both the scientist and the believer this will be a hard pill to swallow, but the fact is, to live happy and worthy and worthwhile lives we need both sides of the coin of reality. We need not let it fall to either side, we must keep it spinning on its side, so intuition and logic will merge.

From that approach I believe will come new ways of researching reality that are not inhibited by dualistic opposition.

So, if people 'believe' in supernatural beings, it is no longer a matter of using the scientific method to determine if it is real or not, but a perspective worth reasoning about in terms of how to be in the world, how such a being affects us and is real to us without it being captured and put in a cage or an MRI scanner. These beings can be thought of as SchrΓΆdinger's  cat. Instead of proving it real or unreal, we leave it unanswered.

Atheism is an important perspective in our world because science is taken to be the holy grail of truth about reality. It connects and serves and approves of scientific thinking. They are more mutually inclusive than exclusive. But as we know, humans should not be divided and measured dually. We have both logic and intuition as part of our psyche and as such, all our views on reality are prone to these influences. In effect, the only way to get a clear picture is to merge them and see what gets revealed.

I promise you that this is a worthy goal in life.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18121929 - 04/17/13 02:35 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
That wouldn't be a unicorn it would be a genetically modified horse. :themoreyouknow:




So now you're an expert on unicorns which you claim don't exist? How does that work?


Edited by teknix (04/17/13 03:01 AM)


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18121958 - 04/17/13 02:51 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

havent read any of this thread but it looks like i came in at the best part :rofl:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18121965 - 04/17/13 02:55 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

yes that is very interesting. I have wondered about where atheists are at. I was never brought up religiously as a child as such, but did have the feeling--because of religious stuff permeating into my imagination--that I was sometimes being watched by Jesus, and I would flash him---this is no joke lol

I have been through stages of search, especially after my LSD experiences when 15.

I like your Tarot cards idea. Now which card would represent the atheist? In a way you could be right about The Devil. In that the mythical meaning given to the 'Devil' by Christianity is that he is at the centre of matter. And this is what we here from atheists lots---that only 'matter' exists and there is no 'spirit'---or for the latter they will say, 'so where's the evidence?'. They want 'solid material evidence'.

I have heard some atheists patronizingly tell others they are trying to convince they are right that they themselves used to think 'woo woo', but have gone through a 'trial of fire' to get to where they are. That sounds like 'hell' talk lol too.

I often think that what atheists are so passionate about is dispelling any talk about spirit and/or spirits because they see a danger of that. And in a way they are right if we look at cultures like Aztec and Mayan cultures that had mass sacrifices to 'spirits/gods' and of course the stuff that has gone down in the big religions to appease the 'Gods'.

but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra

So we all have to look very seriously at what all this means because it is us, and how we are, and what we are doing in this world---destroying it. WHAT do we mean by 'matter' and 'spirit' is a crucial question.


Edited by zzripz (04/17/13 02:56 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: quinn]
    #18121972 - 04/17/13 03:01 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
havent read any of this thread but it looks like i came in at the best part :rofl:




Come join in the fun!


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18122002 - 04/17/13 03:19 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

yay, unicorns obviously exist



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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18122005 - 04/17/13 03:20 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Well, there isn't any evidence for that conclusion, plain and simple. Explain all you want, it doesn't mean anything without evidence.



I didn't even give you an answer and you're still parroting the one point you think your argument hinges upon.


There will never be evidence that unicorns don't exist SO YOU CAN NEVER TELL ME THEY DON'T EXIST, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU SAY YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY AREN'T REAL! :magicfingers:





Exactly, finally you get it.

You don't accept a null hypothesis, you only fail to reject it. Athiesm is accepting the null hypothesis as a fact, when in fact, failing to reject the null hypothesis doesn't equate to any evidence. Rejecting the null hypothesis leads to evidence for the alternative hypothesis, but not vice versa.

There are a bunch of hinges.


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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The_Aviator]
    #18122008 - 04/17/13 03:21 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Are you aware that as well as being conscious you have a subconscious



Yeah, so what?

Quote:

and that there is a collective consciousness or awareness which interconnects all reality, including interspecies, and into other dimensions etc?



Quite a bold statement. I, for one, was not aware and I'd like to see your evidence that is not stories of people taking drugs.




There lies the problem. I hope I do not assume too much. But it seems to me that the above statement reveals you think of drug experiences as unreal. Why is it that you give more leeway to that scientific position than the opposing position where experiences out of drug use are real? Is it not because from birth you and I both have been taught to think scientifically rather than consider drugs to be a valid method of perceiving reality?

I just wonder what makes you believe that the logical state you are in when not 'on drugs' is anything else but the result of a mixture of chemicals in the brain?

E.g. we know humans have DMT in their blood, their spinal cord and in the brain. As a result you perceive reality in some default mode. There is serotonine too, dopamine, some sort of cannbinoid compounds and myriad other substances that all combined create your baseline world  perspective. And you think THAT is real? Why? because it is a baseline?

If you alter that brain chemistry by introducing some compound you alter the overall chemistry. Instead of serotonine or some other thing connecting to a receptor, the flood of DMT pushes that out of the way and connects instead. And your perception of reality changes. How is that not real? Whether it is serotonine or DMT, both are chemicals that occur in your brain naturally.

It seems to me that all these realities therefore are real. The fact we call a baseline a baseline (consciousness) is because our organism benefits not from a continually shifting brain chemistry. Evolutionary-wise this would have no positive result in chances of survival.

So a baseline consciousness to me has as little meaning as stating that Van Gogh should be considered a baseline for painting. They are all styles with value onto themselves.



Quote:

Many times I have encountered what you would call "entities" on an array of substances including LSD, mushrooms, DMT, 25i-nbome, and methoxetamine. But never once did I come back from that experience thinking I was somehow perceiving other "realms" or dimensions just by ingesting a substance that is not natural to my biology.




Well, that is because your mind is preset and locked in concrete. Point of entry is point of exit. If you go in with a mind bend on seeing your baseline consciousness as ultimate and ultimately real, then all other states of consciousness must be considered alterations off of that baseline and therefore merely a sort of subdirectory of the real thing.

Imagine for a moment I lost the tendency to look upon the world from that perspective. How would a drug induced state look to me?

Although I carry myself through the day with a 'baseline consciousness', I no longer insist on it to be the ultimate reality chemical complex. I find this useful, as Hancock says it: ""Our society values alert problem solving consciousness. And it devalues all other states of consciousness. Any kind of consciousness that is not related to the production or consumption of material goods is stigmatized in our society today."

What I experience during a trip is as real to me as this alert problem solving consciousness. I have no preference. I would not mind being in a trance state all the time and only come out of it to do my grocery shopping.

Can you imagine someone like me? And without thinking I am 'crazy' or 'delusional' or any other such label invented either by scientists or psychiatrists? I prefer my freedom of mind, not to do this:

""It's something strange about the human mind. We get locked into particular world views and mindsets, and once we get locked into a world view it is the hardest thing on earth to change it. I think it is harder than moving a mountain to change a scientists world view."
-- Graham Hancock, New Dawn No. 37"

I can no longer subscribe to an entrenched, fortified position about the nature of reality. I wish to be free. Don't internalize specific methods and world views, such as science or religion. That is my advice.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
    #18122011 - 04/17/13 03:24 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

unicorns?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: quinn]
    #18122079 - 04/17/13 04:03 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
unicorns?










Edited by teknix (04/17/13 04:19 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #18122203 - 04/17/13 05:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)



Quote:

In this scene, the unicorn is lured by the purity of the maiden where it lies down to be killed. The Christian associations are clearly illustrated here, yet I want to swim in a slightly different direction.

    Magic streams from innocence. If you think about your own childhood daydreams, don’t you feel nostalgic for that magical world? This paradisiacal state ends with the death of our imagination. The loss of our childhood dreams are tantamount to the loss of soul.




Unicorn descriptions and quotes

Quote:

Unicorns are wild creatures, very difficult to observe. The earliest reports about unicorns come from India. Their appearances are generally described the same way, doesn’t matter when or where they have been seen. The body of the beast, smaller than a horse, covered with a silvery white fur. They have long legs, which give them the agility, and hoofs similar to a goat. They have manes that go half way down their backs. The tails are long and furry. On top of their head they have a single horn pointing skyward, which thy use to fight fearlessly and fiercely, but only when they cannot run away.  They believe everyone, every living being have the right to live free.

Unicorns were the most recognizable magic the fairies possessed, and they sent them to those worlds where belief in magic was in danger of failing altogether. After all there has to be some belief in magic- however small for any world to survive. source




One of the oldest images we know of the Mother of Wild Animals and the Dance is the Venus of Laussel, a bas-relief from a cave in the Dordogne Valley, France, during circa 19.000 B.C. This icon shows the Great Mother standing with a bison horn upheld in her right hand, the horn is a lunar crescent, and the relief is painted with red ochre, the magic colour of menstruation and birth. Such a figure presided over the masked shamanic dances and the circle dances of communion with all animals, all life, in which blood-woman-moon-bison horn-birth-magic-the cycle of life are analogized in a continuous resonance, or harmony of sacred energies. This Laussel great Mother holding the lunar horn became the virgin and the unicorn (one-horn) of medieval legend. The marvelous tapestries of the Middle Ages, all woven by women, frequently tell the story of "the unicorn who may be touched and tamed only by a chaste virgin". As Thompson notes, the unicorn is "a lunar symbol of the ancient religion of Europe," the great Mother religion, and the ritual-drama of the macho hunter chasing and slaying this magic beast represents a trace memory of the shift from the moon-worshiping matrifocal European pagan society to the patriarchal sun worship of the Roman Empire and the Christian church. (The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth, by Monica SjΓΆΓΆ & Barbara Mor, page 84)



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Offlinelolwut
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #18122314 - 04/17/13 05:57 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I met beings on salvia.  I couldn't catch one and bring it back though. :sad:




:hugitout:


--------------------
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:haha:


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] * 2
    #18123239 - 04/17/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18123436 - 04/17/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?



yer aint DIGGIN what I mean.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #18123479 - 04/17/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?



yer aint DIGGIN what I mean.




Ok, well then what do you mean?

I guess you mean the culture, instead of stalin himself... Either way, it's a ridiculous thing to say.  Look at the countries with the lowest crime rates and highest quality of life in the world - they are largely non-believing societies.  But notice that I don't use this as evidence there is not a god.  It's just evidence that belief in god does not make individuals, or society, more moral.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen] * 1
    #18123500 - 04/17/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
f you alter that brain chemistry by introducing some compound you alter the overall chemistry. Instead of serotonine or some other thing connecting to a receptor, the flood of DMT pushes that out of the way and connects instead. And your perception of reality changes. How is that not real?




This has been covered many times in the thread.  How on earth do you manage to confuse a perception of reality with reality itself?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen] * 1
    #18123991 - 04/17/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

And your perception of reality changes. How is that not real?

How can you not get that someone on acid whose perception of reality is that he can fly runs smack into actual reality when he jumps off a building and is smashed to pieces?

Perception of reality is not reality. One is in your imagination. The other is in the real world. One can't even be seen by anyone outside your head, the other one can kill you.

I'm just absolutely floored sometimes by the shit I read here. :facepalm:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
    #18124013 - 04/17/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:  They should thank their lucky stars for a culture that protects those soft little heads.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #18124742 - 04/17/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
but they always seem to have a blindspot for the same horrors--if not even worse-- in atheistic cultures where, in the absence of a spirit or god, a man and/or State is deified! Stalin, North Korea, scientific materialism/Church of Scientism, cetra




I'm sorry, I can't let you get away with this.  Who cares if stalin was an atheist? What if he also likes steak, and I like steak? Does that mean you have to worry about me killing millions of people?



yer aint DIGGIN what I mean.




Ok, well then what do you mean?

I guess you mean the culture, instead of stalin himself... Either way, it's a ridiculous thing to say.  Look at the countries with the lowest crime rates and highest quality of life in the world - they are largely non-believing societies.  But notice that I don't use this as evidence there is not a god.  It's just evidence that belief in god does not make individuals, or society, more moral.




OMFG ...errrm North Korea...already?


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