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The_Aviator
High Flyer



Registered: 03/08/10
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] 1
#18118053 - 04/16/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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zzripz said: Are you aware that as well as being conscious you have a subconscious
Yeah, so what?
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and that there is a collective consciousness or awareness which interconnects all reality, including interspecies, and into other dimensions etc?
Quite a bold statement. I, for one, was not aware and I'd like to see your evidence that is not stories of people taking drugs. Many times I have encountered what you would call "entities" on an array of substances including LSD, mushrooms, DMT, 25i-nbome, and methoxetamine. But never once did I come back from that experience thinking I was somehow perceiving other "realms" or dimensions just by ingesting a substance that is not natural to my biology.
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Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself." Being and Nothingness Easy no-nausea hbwr tek Phish videos and discussion!
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: 'American Pie' by Don McClean was music about music as was The Guess Who's 'Power in the Music'. I am sure there are many examples.
You know I was joking about the person who said "you can't think about thinking" right?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Vaipen]
#18118242 - 04/16/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Vaipen said:
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clam_dude said:
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"At my colonial school I had been told that the rituals my people performed to heal were devilish. But I discovered that there were countless illnesses that could not be healed at the local infirmary, which were perfectly curable at the hands of Dagara healers. I wondered whether saving lives was indeed devlish or satanic. At school, we had also been told that tribal people had no knowledge of magic, but instead were very superstitious. When I witnessed Dagara people make things appear and disappear into thin air, when I witnessed beings from the Other World show up in flesh and bones, allowing me to touch them, I wondered how superstitious all this was. And then there was my introduction to the kontomblΓ©, the spirits in the wild, who worked as the comforter of every person in need. All of these experiences contradicted the theories disemminated in the schools" source
You don't really believe this nonsense do you?
Just because something is written down in a book or on the internet doesn't make worthy of...anything, in this case.
It's really just an appeal to authority. Just think about this for yourself: the guy says he "saw" people make things come in and out of existence. Now what do you think is more likely - that these people can really make things pop in and out of existence, or that someone is telling a fib. Or that someone had a hallucination. Really, I'm embarrassed for you.
Logical fallacies, is that the end of all discussion?
I could claim one on your part. But logical fallacies, just as everything in our dual modern world, fails to be understood. We see with half a mind.
Give an example: privacy. Privacy is not hiding things from another that you like to keep to yourself. That is just one-way thinking. Privacy also means I do not have to confronted with your things. Privacy is not just not taking a shower with other people after going for a swim. It is also not having to be confronted with their nakedness. So it goes two ways.
Likewise, 'appeal to authority' should have two sides of it too. What is the opposite of it? 'Not appeal to authority'? Or 'appeal to laymanship'? So why don't I ever hear that expressed?
Look, it doesn't matter who thought of an idea. We still use Newton's laws because they have held up over the years. But Newton was also an alchemist, and we don't take that work seriously. Good ideas can withstand criticism. It doesn't matter who thought of it. So appealing to anyone just because of who they are is absurd.
And could you point out my logical fallacies, instead of just accusing me of making them.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (04/16/13 12:55 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18118263 - 04/16/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
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OrgoneConclusion said: 'American Pie' by Don McClean was music about music as was The Guess Who's 'Power in the Music'. I am sure there are many examples.
You know I was joking about the person who said "you can't think about thinking" right?
You know I never ever joke, right?
--------------------
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18118646 - 04/16/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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clam_dude said: Look, it doesn't matter who thought of an idea. We still use Newton's laws because they have held up over the years. But Newton was also an alchemist, and we don't take that work seriously. Good ideas can withstand criticism. It doesn't matter who thought of it. So appealing to anyone just because of who they are is absurd.
And could you point out my logical fallacies, instead of just accusing me of making them.
Newtons laws (of motion) are erroneous and have been completely superseeded by einsteins theories
They only work for slow velocities
And it happened about 100 years ago 
Maxwell's aether theories were rejected too by Einstein, even though maxwells theory is one of the most accurate theories in physics of today (and since 1800s) (electrodynamics), he said that an aether should exist that permeate space, but Einstein proved the idea wrong
But most of his other work still worked, it just shows that every scientist makes mistakes
Realizing mistakes is often as important as new discovery in science
Edited by lessismore (04/16/13 02:52 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore]
#18118751 - 04/16/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Newtons laws (of motion) are erroneous and have been completely superseeded by einsteins theories They only work for slow velocities
BZZZZTTTT! Nope.
You are right that relativistic equations are more accurate on paper but Newtonian mechanics is still used to calculate missile trajectories, ballistics, artillery calculations. It was used to send Apollo to the moon and is used today to send probes to Mars and put satellites into orbit.
Relativistic equations are slightly more accurate but also immensely more complex to work with. They require enormous computation horsepower to solve in real-time and are rarely required because they are not worth using except when extreme precision is needed.
For example, when sending extremely sensitive scientific instruments into precision orbits. Or for applying relativistic corrections to compensate for the time-traveling of GPS satellites that would otherwise render GPS inaccurate.
But for sending a probe to Mars, or humans to the moon, or communication satellites into orbit, the error inherent in Newtonian mechanics amounts to a tiny fraction of the permissible error for the mission. Very few real-world endeavors require relativistic equations.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The_Aviator]
#18118795 - 04/16/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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The_Aviator said:
Yeah, so what?
want me to tell you? learn?
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and that there is a collective consciousness or awareness which interconnects all reality, including interspecies, and into other dimensions etc?
Quite a bold statement. I, for one, was not aware and I'd like to see your evidence that is not stories of people taking drugs. Many times I have encountered what you would call "entities" on an array of substances including LSD, mushrooms, DMT, 25i-nbome, and methoxetamine. But never once did I come back from that experience thinking I was somehow perceiving other "realms" or dimensions just by ingesting a substance that is not natural to my biology.
That is your interpretation of your experience.
Edited by zzripz (04/16/13 03:00 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] 1
#18118797 - 04/16/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's telling him.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore]
#18118878 - 04/16/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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mio said:
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clam_dude said: Look, it doesn't matter who thought of an idea. We still use Newton's laws because they have held up over the years. But Newton was also an alchemist, and we don't take that work seriously. Good ideas can withstand criticism. It doesn't matter who thought of it. So appealing to anyone just because of who they are is absurd.
And could you point out my logical fallacies, instead of just accusing me of making them.
Newtons laws (of motion) are erroneous and have been completely superseeded by einsteins theories
They only work for slow velocities
And it happened about 100 years ago 
Maxwell's aether theories were rejected too by Einstein, even though maxwells theory is one of the most accurate theories in physics of today (and since 1800s) (electrodynamics), he said that an aether should exist that permeate space, but Einstein proved the idea wrong
But most of his other work still worked, it just shows that every scientist makes mistakes
Realizing mistakes is often as important as new discovery in science
I knew you were going to say that. Yeah, Newton's laws only work for slow velocities, but they still work and are still used. I didn't say that no other laws were added. You're missing my point entirely. I chose that example arbitrarily. it doesn't even matter if it's a fictional story. The point is that the idea is what matters and gets passed on.
Let's say that Einstein believed in ghosts or other supernatural things. It wouldn't make those claims any more likely, because there is still no evidence of them.
And obviously scientists make mistakes. Did I ever say otherwise? Scientists admit they're wrong all the time. Probably more than most people, especially religious nuts, or people who believe things without evidence.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (04/16/13 03:19 PM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#18118902 - 04/16/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid said: Newtons laws (of motion) are erroneous and have been completely superseeded by einsteins theories They only work for slow velocities
BZZZZTTTT! Nope.
You are right that relativistic equations are more accurate on paper but Newtonian mechanics is still used to calculate missile trajectories, ballistics, artillery calculations. It was used to send Apollo to the moon and is used today to send probes to Mars and put satellites into orbit.
Relativistic equations are slightly more accurate but also immensely more complex to work with. They require enormous computation horsepower to solve in real-time and are rarely required because they are not worth using except when extreme precision is needed.
For example, when sending extremely sensitive scientific instruments into precision orbits. Or for applying relativistic corrections to compensate for the time-traveling of GPS satellites that would otherwise render GPS inaccurate.
But for sending a probe to Mars, or humans to the moon, or communication satellites into orbit, the error inherent in Newtonian mechanics amounts to a tiny fraction of the permissible error for the mission. Very few real-world endeavors require relativistic equations.
Yeah, and the funny thing is, we get onto this tangent about weather Newton's laws are still used. But I really just chose that as an arbitrary example. I'm sure everyone here understands my point - that the idea is what matters, not the person. But some people here will of course try and find something to argue about, even if it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. And even then, they're wrong.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (04/16/13 03:23 PM)
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teknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18119465 - 04/16/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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clam_dude said: Yes! Tyson is agnostic, and can rightly call himself that. I have no problem with that. My problem is with his definition of atheist (as someone who goes around talking about atheism all the time). Do you agree that that's not a good definition of "atheist"? I don't know why we're still talking about this. I don't think you listen to anything i say.
How do you know he doesn't have more reasons? That could be but a single example as to the why.
IE; People doing what you are doing right now . . . (making bare and false statements based without evidence. The intent seems to cause controversy and get attention.)
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#18119468 - 04/16/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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clam_dude said: But some people here will of course try and find something to argue about, even if it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. And even then, they're wrong.
I find it amazing how well one can describe themselves when they think or pretend to talk of others.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 2
#18119556 - 04/16/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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teknix said:
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clam_dude said: But some people here will of course try and find something to argue about, even if it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. And even then, they're wrong.
I find it amazing how well one can describe themselves when they think or pretend to talk of others.
And still another example of teknix making negative personal comments about fellow forum members when it has nothing to do with the conversation.
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teknix said:
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clam_dude said: Yes! Tyson is agnostic, and can rightly call himself that. I have no problem with that. My problem is with his definition of atheist (as someone who goes around talking about atheism all the time). Do you agree that that's not a good definition of "atheist"? I don't know why we're still talking about this. I don't think you listen to anything i say.
How do you know he doesn't have more reasons? That could be but a single example as to the why.
IE; People doing what you are doing right now . . . (making bare and false statements based without evidence. The intent seems to cause controversy and get attention.)
I see you've again declined to answer a direct question from clam_dude. If you aren't going to debate the issue you should go to the mystery forum.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#18119583 - 04/16/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have one question to solve this riddle:
How many of you "atheist" have concluded that there is not a god in any way, shape or form?
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JoieDeVivre
Hippie Babysitter



Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 5,751
Loc: Gamehenge
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 1
#18119601 - 04/16/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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You're still on your, "we can't know if there is a god and that's the problem with atheism," schtick?
-------------------- Sapere aude "We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."
UBUNTU- I am because we are.
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#18119602 - 04/16/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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teknix said:
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clam_dude said: But some people here will of course try and find something to argue about, even if it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. And even then, they're wrong.
I find it amazing how well one can describe themselves when they think or pretend to talk of others.
And still another example of teknix making negative personal comments about fellow forum members when it has nothing to do with the conversation.
Quote:
teknix said:
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clam_dude said: Yes! Tyson is agnostic, and can rightly call himself that. I have no problem with that. My problem is with his definition of atheist (as someone who goes around talking about atheism all the time). Do you agree that that's not a good definition of "atheist"? I don't know why we're still talking about this. I don't think you listen to anything i say.
How do you know he doesn't have more reasons? That could be but a single example as to the why.
IE; People doing what you are doing right now . . . (making bare and false statements based without evidence. The intent seems to cause controversy and get attention.)
I see you've again declined to answer a direct question from clam_dude. If you aren't going to debate the issue you should go to the mystery forum.
This is a rhetorical answer that says: One reason he doesn't associate himself as an atheist is because they are often outspoken of their views.
(Like some Christians)
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
#18119607 - 04/16/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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JoieDeVivre said: You're still on your, "we can't know if there is a god and that's the problem with atheism," schtick? 
Have you concluded that there is not a god in any way, shape or form?
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JoieDeVivre
Hippie Babysitter



Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 5,751
Loc: Gamehenge
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] 1
#18119639 - 04/16/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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This has been answered to death. Good luck getting someone to try and get the answer through your thick skull one more time.
-------------------- Sapere aude "We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."
UBUNTU- I am because we are.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre] 1
#18119642 - 04/16/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
#18119650 - 04/16/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, there isn't any evidence for that conclusion, plain and simple. Explain all you want, it doesn't mean anything without evidence.
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