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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17785858 - 02/11/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Atheism is like a -1 on a scale of -1  to  1. Agnosticism would be anything between -1 and 1, and 1 would be certainty of god.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17785878 - 02/11/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
Quote:

teknix said:

A baby isn't an athiest, it hasn't decided anything. A baby is in ignorance, the same as agnosticism. Agnosticism is more admittedly so unassuming.

Horrible analogy.

:wave:




Oh but don't you see?  In clam_dude world all agnostics are atheists by default.  According to him it's fine for atheists to define themselves subjectively by their own interpretation of the word atheism but agnostics who reject the atheist label are wrong about the suddenly objective (:rolleyes:) definition.  clam_dude, are you even capable of appreciating the logical contortions you are attempting to pull in this thread by claiming to have no opinion about the existence of god while at the same time trying to argue against the existence of god?




First of all, I would appreciate it if you don't misrepresent what I have said.  Nowhere did I say that all agnostics are atheists by default.  I said the two are not mutually exclusive.  I said that atheism is (usually) a subset of agnosticism.  Not the other way around. 

As for me defining myself by my own interpretation - i use the word atheist because it is understood to mean a certain thing at this moment in history.  Like I already said, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well.  So I'm not defining the word how I want to.  If people generally took it to mean a disbelief in god, i wouldn't use the word. 

But to clarify, I believe that "god," as I've heard it defined, is highly unlikely.  That's why I call myself an atheist, not an agnostic.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17785884 - 02/11/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Atheism is like a -1 on a scale of -1  to  1. Agnosticism would be anything between -1 and 1, and 1 would be certainty of god.




If this is the case then science would be statistically agnostic.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786071 - 02/11/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
They don't have rights, but their parents/gaurdians do.




You are talking about our man made legal systems. I think those are thrown out the window when talking about idealogy/religion/theism(s) etc.


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17786111 - 02/11/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
How could you even make that claim though "If it doesn't believe in god, it's an atheist." How do you know a baby doesn't believe in some sort of deity? If you wanna go this far in the rabbit hole then that's gonna be questioned too. For all you know a baby thinks that his parents are deities. Maybe they think toys are deities.




How could I make that statement? Because that's the definition of being an atheist - not believing in god.  So if the baby has not even formed the concept of god in their mind, they are an atheist.  It's the default position.  Now, this is getting into an area I don't know that much about. But I'm willing to bet that a baby, which has no concept of oranges let's say. has a concept of god.




Your argument holds up if you are only talking about the Christian God.  Then yeah, a baby can't possibly have the concept of the Christian God unless it is taught. But think about the simple definition of deity.

Taken from Wikipedia
Quote:


"A deity (i/ˈdiː.Ι¨ti/ or i/ˈdeΙͺ.Ι¨ti/) is a being, natural, supernatural or preternatural, with superhuman powers or qualities, and who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred."




Now to a baby, pretty much everything is "supernatural". Everything is "magic". A baby does not know how their mother produces milk either by natural ways or using a powder mix. They don't know where daddy goes for a few hours everyday. To them pc screen might as well be a portal to a different dimension. A lot of kids feel that their parents are always right and can do no wrong. They often tell "legends" or have "myths" about their parents or life in general.

In that sense they then can believe in a higher power. They might not believe in a Christian God. But they believe in something nonetheless.

Now you may think this is a ridiculous claim. But look back at human history. People all around the world have used religious/spiritual/supernatural explanations to explain natural phenomenon around them at the time. We know better today, but they pretty much believed it back then. How different is that from a baby who doesn't understand things and then uses religious/spiritual/supernatural explanations to make sense of his or her world?


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 09:37 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786122 - 02/11/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Even literally, the baby has no rights without someone to imbue the rights. A mother can give a baby away and no longer care for it if she chooses, or even kill it.

Babys are similar to parasites in that they require a living host to survive.


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786135 - 02/11/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Even literally, the baby has no rights without someone to imbue the rights. A mother can give a baby away and no longer cares for it if she chooses, or even kill it.




There's a difference between "rights" and "ability". The mother can only kill someone because she is physically able to do so. The baby has the same natural right, it just doesn't have the same motor/cognitive skills as an adult.

Just because man didn't have any means to "fly" for a long period of time, doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so. It was only a matter of making it happen.

It's ability you are talking about, not rights per say.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 09:45 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786169 - 02/11/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Rights come with the ability to voice them. Most of us would be slaves if someone didn't voice our rights at some point, and we are still becoming slaves because fewer people voice their rights.

Why don't we give cows and pigs and other life rights if it is some magical thing that doesn't require input. Martin Luthur King Jr. had to voice the rights or they were non-existent.

That's how rights work.

Not everyone is going to consider universal maxims for their actions because not everyone subscribes to Kantianism.

If non of us had a voice we would depend on others to give us rights and we only have the rights they give us.


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786220 - 02/11/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Rights come with the ability to voice them. Most of us would be slaves if someone didn't voice our rights at some point, and we are still becoming slaves because fewer people voice their rights.

Why don't we give cows and pigs and other life rights if it is some magical thing that doesn't require input. Martin Luthur King Jr. had to voice the rights or they were non-existent.

That's how rights work.

Not everyone is going to consider universal maxims for their actions because not everyone subscribes to Kantianism.

If non of us had a voice we would depend on others to give us rights and we only have the rights they give us.




Again. You are talking about man made rights. Rights that are given to you for use in man made society.

In nature, no one gives you rights (unless you subscribe to religious beliefs or some sort of god). In the natural world, you do what you want and you deal with the repercussions. No one can really say what you did was wrong or right. You are naturally rewarded or punished for your actions. If an animal kills another animal, that's it's right. Doesn't even matter if he gets away scott free or gets killed doing it.

In your example cows and pigs aren't given the same rights as humans. But that's only if you consider our legal system. What really happened is we rounded them up and they aren't strong or smart enough to get out. That's what actually happened. The fact that they don't have legal documents is an after thought. Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

That's why it's possible for you and I to kill someone. Because it's a natural right and we are both physically able to do so. Which is why I don't depend on some man made legal system because in the end it can't really prevent anything.

And the baby has the same right. It's just not physically ABLE to do so.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 09:59 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786231 - 02/11/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

RIGHTS:

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.[1] Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786242 - 02/11/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
RIGHTS:

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.[1] Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights




I never said you were incorrect about the man made rights. But it has no bearing in this discussion. We were talking about NATURAL babies and NATURAL thought process of infants. Legal systems have no bearing on that.

So I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

The legal system of any country has no say whether a baby is able to have concepts of anything. That's all biological etc. NOT LEGAL SYSTEM BASED.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:01 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786243 - 02/11/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Some people have the  right to stone others, how did these rights come about without anyone claiming this or communicating it to others?


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786256 - 02/11/13 10:03 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Some people have the  right to stone others, how did these rights come about without anyone claiming this?





Legally without reprimand. That is what you are referring to.

But naturally anyone can stone anyone. An invisible barrier won't save you just because someone signed a law that says a person can't.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:03 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786262 - 02/11/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly, so rights are within your abilities?

A woman could kill her baby, so is it her right?


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786279 - 02/11/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Exactly, so rights are within your abilities?

A woman could kill her baby, so is it her right?




No. Rights are not confined by ability.

If that were true, then man would have never had the right to fly. Ever.

Man always had the right. They just weren't able to.

I don't know why you are hung up on the legal definition of "right". It doesn't stop anything.

Black men couldn't have sex with white women at one point by social standards and laws. But they physically could so there are accounts of it happening.

And you can actually go and sign a law that prohibits babies from playing with toys. They can physically still do it. All you can do is punish them for it.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:11 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786296 - 02/11/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It wasn't until a man claimed the right to fly (voicing it and doing it) that it ever became a right.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786313 - 02/11/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
It wasn't until a man claimed the right to fly (voicing it and doing it) that it ever became a right.




LMFAO no.

Cause I'm pretty sure someone uttered "I can fly" at some point in any language and then proceeded to fail.

Someone had to invent a way to fly using technology. Which men naturally had the right to do so in their entire existence. And thus proceed to fly. They didn't need to pass a law for that. I'm pretty sure.

LMFAO

Now to be fair, there are no fly zones. I bet there are man made laws saying that people can't fly there. But even then. "Can't"= We will prosecute to the full extent of the law. But to be able to do that, the perpetrator would have to fly there. Thus he did the act of flying. Law couldn't stop it. It can only punish him legally for it.


Edited by GilbertC06 (02/11/13 10:16 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786320 - 02/11/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Say you are confined in a cube made of iron with little holes in the side, do you have the right not to be poked with a cattle prod?

What if I do it anyway, what does that right mean?

So we could say to not be poked with the cattle prod is outside of your ability and not really your right.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17786327 - 02/11/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
It wasn't until a man claimed the right to fly (voicing it and doing it) that it ever became a right.




LMFAO no.

Cause I'm pretty sure someone uttered "I can fly" at some point in any language and then proceeded to fail.

Someone had to invent a way to fly using technology. Which men naturally had the right to do so in their entire existence. And thus proceed to fly. They didn't need to pass a law for that. I'm pretty sure.

LMFAO





If he failed it was outside of his ability and not his right.


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OfflineGilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17786343 - 02/11/13 10:18 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Say you are confined in a cube made of iron with little holes in the side, do you have the right not to be poked with a cattle prod?

What if I do it anyway, what does that right mean?

So we could say to not be poked with the cattle prod is outside of your ability and not really your right.





You just proved my point. You can write all the laws you want on a piece of paper. But if you trap me in a box and still poke me. That proves that the man made law doesn't prevent anything.

In your theory you say I have to voice a right.

Okay I tell you, you can't poke me.

Quote:

What if I do it anyway, what does that right mean?




If you poke me (and you are able) It just destroyed your entire argument.


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