Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Godel Escher Bach]
    #17782947 - 02/11/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Godel Escher Bach said:
From my point of view, Atheism, theism, agnosticism, all completely bizarre ways to think.

Ignosticism is the word they have given for my 'beliefs'. I believe the wikipedia page has a decent amount of information about this stance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

Most often my conversations around this matter go like this:

Theist: Do you believe in god?
Me: What do you mean by god?
Theist: Uhh... don't you know?
Me: No, I have no idea what you mean by god
Theist: Well I mean GOD ofcourse, duh...?
Me: What is a god?
Theist: He is the Creator
Me: Creator of what?
Theist: Everything.
Me: So you're asking me wether I believe we were created or not?
Theist: No I ask wether you believe in God or not.
Me: ...
Me: ..
Me: .
Theist: God bless you.

So in my mind, atheism is just a stance that states "I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about but I don't believe it because I assume you're talking about this concept believe doesn't exist."

Foolish, in other words.




I addressed this earlier in the thread.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #17783043 - 02/11/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Mr Person said:
Actually agnosticism is the only rational position.  It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.





atheism is the lack of belief in a god- this is the definition used by pretty much every prominent atheist- they are essentially all agnostic atheists.

You seem confused and likely mislead by semantic bullshit put out by theists and mystics and those who think the existance of the word agnostic somehow renders it exclusive of the term athiest.




I'm not confused.  "Athiests" who are really agnostic shouldn't cling to inaccurate labels.  True agnostics do not form opinions about the existance of dieties either way. Anything else is just semantic hand wringing by athiests who want to have their cake and eat it too without any of the cognitive dissonance of believing unprovable faith based opinions.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17783201 - 02/11/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I think you misunderstand each other when it comes to being weak and/or strong agnostic.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


Edited by liquidlounge (02/11/13 01:18 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecreaturesofsnow
mushishi
Female

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 229
Loc: pale blue dot
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme] * 1
    #17783297 - 02/11/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
It's only an imaginary friend if you're a child. If you're older, it's a mental disorder.
If you convince someone else your imaginary friend is real, it's religion!




...hahaha I like this quote.

Speaking of, if people don't want kids to question god/jesus, wouldn't you think they wouldn't want to avoid this behavior by avoid the Santa/easter bunny/etc lie?

Its like, "Hey kids, okay we lied about the first two, but were serious about this other invisible guy. Believe me."


--------------------
~be excellent to each other~

There's a shield around us, tell me how is it you've found us?
cause we hide our tracks & watch the ground, our footfalls they don't make a sound
we've cursed the names of our hometowns, we're compassless and nowhere bound

Free Music Share!Trade Trade Trade!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17784470 - 02/11/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
I'm not confused.  "Athiests" who are really agnostic shouldn't cling to inaccurate labels.  True agnostics do not form opinions about the existance of dieties either way. Anything else is just semantic hand wringing by athiests who want to have their cake and eat it too without any of the cognitive dissonance of believing unprovable faith based opinions.




If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god.  For me to believe in something, I need evidence.  I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it.  I don't positively believe that god does not exist either. 

If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist.  I'm an agnostic as well.  Why is this so hard to comprehend?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17784517 - 02/11/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god.  For me to believe in something, I need evidence.  I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it.  I don't positively believe that god does not exist either.

If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist.  I'm an agnostic as well.  Why is this so hard to comprehend?




This is silly.  Do you have any evidence of the number 3?  Not the existence of, say, three basketballs or three m&m's, but of the actual platonic number.  Do you then not believe in the number 3?  Are you an athree-ist?  Or are you actually not in the business of contemplating the existence of 3 at all?  You're an atheist if you actively believe God doesn't exist.  You're an agnostic if you actively believe it's not possible to come up with a coherent position on the matter.  You cannot be both an atheist and an agnostic.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #17784571 - 02/11/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

I hear that. Still I'll choose agnosticism.  Here's my limited reasoning.  "God" is defined in many ways so god doesn't just mean a guy up in the sky.  Considering how many ways you can define the word there might be a possibility that one of them is correct.  Secondly I have to acknowledge that I have a very limited understanding of reality, creation, cosmos, tao, ect.  I know so little about what is actually out there it's going to be very difficult to guess about it.  I'd rather acknowledge that I just don't have a fucking clue and then I can relax and go about my business. I have nothing much to defend or explain.




Yes, according to some definitions of "god," I too believe in it.  If someone says "god is everything," well then yes, I believe in their god.  To me, that's just an inappropriate use of the word "god." I can say I'm an atheist with respect to the christian, jewish, muslim gods, etc.. (although they still need to be further defined). 

Words mean whatever people think they mean, and there is a general sense of what the word "god" means - it usually implies something supernatural, or a divine creator.

Of course, it's not up to me to define something that I don't claim to believe in. 

For simplicity's sake I'm an atheist, but also an agnostic, as the two are not mutually exclusive.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17784602 - 02/11/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god.  For me to believe in something, I need evidence.  I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it.  I don't positively believe that god does not exist either.

If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist.  I'm an agnostic as well.  Why is this so hard to comprehend?




This is silly.  Do you have any evidence of the number 3?  Not the existence of, say, three basketballs or three m&m's, but of the actual platonic number.  Do you then not believe in the number 3?  Are you an athree-ist?  Or are you actually not in the business of contemplating the existence of 3 at all?  You're an atheist if you actively believe God doesn't exist.  You're an agnostic if you actively believe it's not possible to come up with a coherent position on the matter.  You cannot be both an atheist and an agnostic.




You're completely wrong.  The number 3 is a concept, not a being.  The analogy doesn't work. 

If you don't have a coherent position on the matter, then you don't believe in god, do you? That makes you an atheist.  Again, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. 

There might me some atheists who claim that "god" is impossible, but they are a small minority.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17784623 - 02/11/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god.  For me to believe in something, I need evidence.  I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it.  I don't positively believe that god does not exist either.

If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist.  I'm an agnostic as well.  Why is this so hard to comprehend?




This is silly.  Do you have any evidence of the number 3?  Not the existence of, say, three basketballs or three m&m's, but of the actual platonic number.  Do you then not believe in the number 3?  Are you an athree-ist?  Or are you actually not in the business of contemplating the existence of 3 at all?  You're an atheist if you actively believe God doesn't exist.  You're an agnostic if you actively believe it's not possible to come up with a coherent position on the matter.  You cannot be both an atheist and an agnostic.





This is a category error.  Three basketballs are physical objects, the quantity of three is a concept.  To speak of existance  we must be careful not to conflate the physical with the concept.  Obviously we all believe the concept of god exists, its in teh dictionary and in many writings.  What we are talking about is the phsyical existance of god.  It is error to conflate the two.

Similarly with the quantity three, yes, I do have evidence that exists.  Its a concept that refers to the integer number between two and four in order of magnitude.  Having just described it, it exists ipso facto.  To the extent this answer is unsatsifying you are likely commiting a cateogry error and expecting physical evidence of a concept which is to confuse what is being discussed in teh first place.


Quote:

Mr Person said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Mr Person said:
Actually agnosticism is the only rational position.  It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.





atheism is the lack of belief in a god- this is the definition used by pretty much every prominent atheist- they are essentially all agnostic atheists.

You seem confused and likely mislead by semantic bullshit put out by theists and mystics and those who think the existance of the word agnostic somehow renders it exclusive of the term athiest.




I'm not confused.  "Athiests" who are really agnostic shouldn't cling to inaccurate labels.  True agnostics do not form opinions about the existance of dieties either way. Anything else is just semantic hand wringing by athiests who want to have their cake and eat it too without any of the cognitive dissonance of believing unprovable faith based opinions.





You've yet to establish that atheism entails any faith based positions and I have no idea what relevance you think that article has.  Dawkins has long ago stated he does not believe in god's absence but rather lacks a belief in god.  He is one of the more sloppy speakers on this subject, however, so there are instances of him being misleading on this point more so than Harris, Hitchens, Dennet, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Dan Barker, et cet.

All of these preceding authors identify themselves as atheists and all of them are also agnostic (at least a weak agnostic).  You have presented no evidence that this is in error except semantic infereces of exclusivity between the two terms and have failed to answer my questions posed to you.  If you can't debate this matter, fine, but don't respond and ignore the rebutals I've made.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17784624 - 02/11/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What are you talking about?  God is a concept.

If you don't have a position on the matter, you're not anything.  Just because I don't know if I believe in the Democratic planks doesn't make me a Republican.

EDIT: Didn't see your response, john.  Got to go to work.  Will be back.


--------------------


Edited by sonamdrukpa (02/11/13 05:29 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17784756 - 02/11/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
What are you talking about?  God is a concept.

If you don't have a position on the matter, you're not anything.  Just because I don't know if I believe in the Democratic planks doesn't make me a Republican.

EDIT: Didn't see your response, john.  Got to go to work.  Will be back.




I believe in the concept of god.  That's not the same as believing in god.  An apple is a concept as well.  That's not the same as an apple itself. 
And actually, what I said is not entirely true - an apple is not a concept - the concept of an apple is a concept.  In the same way, the concept of god is a concept, but god is not a concept.

Again, your republican/democrat argument is a category error.  Political parties are manmade constructs from which we choose (or don't if we're not into politics). When someone chooses a party, it's an active choice.  If someone doesn't vote and is not into politics at all, it's safe to call them apolitical.  The word apolitical, like atheist, is defining a lack of belief (or interest).  It is therefore the default position.  The person who doesn't know what the word "politics" means is apolitical.
I could also call myself an a-toothfairiest, or a-bigfootest, the list could go on and would include anything I don't believe in or haven't even conceived of.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17784855 - 02/11/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Any ultimate conclusion about the existence or non existence of god as defined in a general sense, rather than secular, is irrational.

Only a moron would argue with -1 or 1. It's a false dichotomy.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17784910 - 02/11/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Any ultimate conclusion about the existence or non existence of god as defined in a general sense, rather than secular, is irrational.

Only a moron would argue with -1 or 1. It's a false dichotomy.




Teknix, you don't make yourself easy to understand. 

What does it mean - a general sense, rather then a secular one?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17784961 - 02/11/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Any ultimate conclusion about the existence or non existence of god as defined in a general sense, rather than secular, is irrational.

Only a moron would argue with -1 or 1. It's a false dichotomy.




:lol:

Thats absurd.

Say I asked to 'disprove' the existence of a being who you could not 'disprove' the existence of....

How would you approach that?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #17784986 - 02/11/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

There is a likelyhood or degree of certainty, that one is correct, and that likelyhood is determined by all the known facts and limited by the missing facts.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #17785021 - 02/11/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Secondly, even if this god exists his existence is irrelevant to our existence because you could not attribute any one thing to him which he may or may not want us to do/think/feel.

Ultimately, it makes no difference if this type of god exists.

The only god that we should care about existing, is a benevolent or malevolent one.

Other than that it is free reign for human morality or a lack thereof.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #17785032 - 02/11/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Depends how you define god, controlling of humans or allowing for free-will through decisions?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
    #17785038 - 02/11/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:

If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god.  For me to believe in something, I need evidence.  I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it.  I don't positively believe that god does not exist either. 

If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist.  I'm an agnostic as well.  Why is this so hard to comprehend?




Oh trust me I comprehend it. I just think it's a bullshit argument.  "Lack of a belief in god" does not equal atheism.  Lack of a belief is agnosticism. If you don't positively believe that god does not exist than don't call yourself an atheist.  In that case you are agnostic. Claiming that atheism is simply a lack of belief is just atheists playing semantic games to make their position seem less hypocritical and dogmatic.


Quote:

clam_dude said:

Words mean whatever people think they mean, and there is a general sense of what the word "god" means - it usually implies something supernatural, or a divine creator.




Yes exactly, thank you.  And the "general sense" is that atheism means an active belief that god does not exist.


Quote:

johnm214 said:

You've yet to establish that atheism entails any faith based positions and I have no idea what relevance you think that article has.  Dawkins has long ago stated he does not believe in god's absence but rather lacks a belief in god.  He is one of the more sloppy speakers on this subject, however, so there are instances of him being misleading on this point more so than Harris, Hitchens, Dennet, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Dan Barker, et cet.

All of these preceding authors identify themselves as atheists and all of them are also agnostic (at least a weak agnostic).  You have presented no evidence that this is in error except semantic infereces of exclusivity between the two terms and have failed to answer my questions posed to you.  If you can't debate this matter, fine, but don't respond and ignore the rebutals I've made.




You've yet to establish that atheism is somehow compatible with agnosticism.  Just because the people you list use the words incorrectly and out of sync with the majority of the population's understanding of them doesn't make your argument any more valid than mine.  That's not evidence. And I straight up told you why I disagree with your assessment. I didn't ignore anything.  It's not my fault if you are too myopically focused on semantics to grok my argument.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17785039 - 02/11/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Any ultimate conclusion about the existence or non existence of god as defined in a general sense, rather than secular, is irrational.

Only a moron would argue with -1 or 1. It's a false dichotomy.




Teknix, you don't make yourself easy to understand. 

What does it mean - a general sense, rather then a secular one?




It means looking at the big picture and realizing you can't even define god rather than accepting the varying interpretations of god through religion, rituals, magic, etc.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #17785081 - 02/11/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

To a Christian that position would be atheist, to me it's just due to ignorance, or lack there-of.

:cool:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Recent Oversaturation Of Christian God Shit Here...
( 1 2 3 all )
fireworks_godS 4,701 57 11/27/05 01:15 PM
by Gomp
* Drugs and Christianity shroomsbury 761 5 02/03/03 09:34 AM
by Demon
* why christianity is bullshit
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
KingOftheThing 24,570 161 04/24/11 05:50 PM
by Holy Bud
* I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment
( 1 2 3 4 all )
World Spirit 4,363 65 05/05/03 09:33 PM
by CosmicJoke
* Christian Rationalism. An answer ? MAIA 1,339 2 08/04/02 05:08 AM
by MAIA
* Atheist Website responds to Christian Letter
( 1 2 all )
Swami 4,129 20 06/22/03 03:55 PM
by Sclorch
* Christianity, Colonialism, Capitalism and Islam. atomikfunksoldier 2,017 14 07/14/03 07:44 AM
by gnrm23
* Atheism.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
evilchipmunk 8,013 90 07/26/04 09:58 AM
by Hanky

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
84,881 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 13 queries.