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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792104 - 02/12/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It's not about what I want, it's about what is.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17792140 - 02/12/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It doesn't matter weather you label Einstein an atheist or a pantheist because the idea of god played no part in his world view.  He used the word poetically from time to time, that's it.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792148 - 02/12/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

He would rather define god before denying god. It is the only logical route.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792152 - 02/12/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

You there SeaShrooms?

Admit you're wrong (about calling me dogmatic), or stand your ground.
For all that name calling, you sure disappeared fast.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792180 - 02/12/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
:rofl:
More angry, empty rhetoric.
I asked none of those things, and while amusing, your tangents address none of my concerns.
Since this is turning far too circular, I'll let you folks have it from here.
:cheers:




It wasn't your thread so I didn't answer your questions. If you'd like me to, show me where it was that you thought I would magically know to respond to you. Quit assuming I'm some all-knowing God.

Quote:

clam_dude said:The most amusing post so far.  :bow2:

I never decided to become an atheist.  This might be hard for some of you to understand, but I was never indoctrinated into believing in any kind of deity.  I have never seen a reason to believe in "god," and to be honest, I can't even imagine what it's like to believe in god.

Albert Einstein was an atheist for all practical purposes.  So you shouldn't use his quotes to back up your belief in god.  Einstein used the word "god" in a poetic way on a few occasions.  But near the end of his life, he made it clear that he was not a theist and was concerned about his quotes being misused.




I'm glad I could get you off stranger. Next time it won't be free.

You keep calling it God even after my lack of use of that term because it has ideas attached to it about what it's supposed to be. If you never believed in anything then that's fine. I didn't address that in the same way that you didn't address my points.

As far as Einstein goes, it doesn't matter what he believed. He said what he said and when you're right, you're right.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ara16w]
    #17792191 - 02/12/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The part that said "re: sVs".
Thanks for playing, smart guy.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17792205 - 02/12/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
He would rather define god before denying god. It is the only logical route.




So there's this thing "god," that I must admit exists...then I just have to define it however I can rationalize it?

Why do some people feel they must cling on to this thing called "god," and just define it however they want?

What if I say "I have a word called      ."  You have to believe in this thing called "      ."  You can define it in whatever abstract way you want, but you must say you believe in it.


The only difference between Einstein's version of pantheism and atheism is that he said the word "god" a few times.  Other than that, the Idea of "god" did not affect his world view. 

Here is Einstein
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ara16w]
    #17792240 - 02/12/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:

I'm glad I could get you off stranger. Next time it won't be free.

You keep calling it God even after my lack of use of that term because it has ideas attached to it about what it's supposed to be. If you never believed in anything then that's fine. I didn't address that in the same way that you didn't address my points.

As far as Einstein goes, it doesn't matter what he believed. He said what he said and when you're right, you're right.




How did I not address your points? Your main point was about why atheists are atheists.  You said it's because we feel mad:
"They're usually mad at God and whatever Christian themed ideas they've made it out to be. If life didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, "fuck God, I'm an atheist now." "

That's why I told you I've always been an atheist.  I didn't become one because of some life experience.  I was just never indoctrinated into believing in "god"

And I use the word "god" because so many other people do.  I don't use the word to  describe my own beliefs.  And I usually put it in quotes because it's usually not well defined. 

Then I addressed what you said about Einstein.  Read the quote from him that I included in my last post.  That should clarify things for you:)


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792463 - 02/12/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

SeaShrooms said:

Jesus Christ, that's some nerve, saying I didn't address your points when I specifically did and then you go and ignore key bits of evidence for mine such as the gospel of john.





Well it's funny that you should comment on that now, seeing as it was written all the way back at...page 6.  That just shows that you haven't been reading what I wrote.  But maybe you just didn't want to comment back then...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.




I went to bed and when I came back there were 200  new posts.  Also, why did your quote make me into SeaShrooms?

Quote:

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Do you understand what the word "necessary" means?  If you lack something necessary for belief, then it's impossible by the definition of necessary to believe.





Disbelief is different than lack of a belief.

....




I spoke wrongly, but that actually makes my point more clear: disbelief in God is required to be an atheist; lack of belief is not.  A lack of evidence for the existence of 3 is, to fix the analogy, similarly not sufficient to be an athree-ist, since that would require disbelief.

Quote:

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
What type of crazy grammar do you subscribe to?  "X is a concept" is a syntactically well-formed sentence.

Here's another metaphor, because you seem really confused in these posts:  "America" is a concept.  I can also have a concept of America, but the America itself is a still concept - it is an abstraction, in the same way that peace is an abstraction, or numbers.  Here is the wiki on "concept" if you need some reference.  God is an abstract idea as well.  There are also conceptions of God, but they are not what I was referring to, and I made it perfectly clear that I was avoiding such confusion.





No, "x" is not a concept.




That X was meant to be a stand-in for any appropriate noun you could throw in.  The same way people go, "Imagine that person A does blah blah to person B, does person B have the right to blahdiblah"

Quote:

"America" is not a concept either.




America is an abstract idea - that is all it takes to be a concept.  How am I wrong?
Quote:

The concept of "america" is a concept.




This is true.  It does not make "America" not a concept.

Quote:

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
No - only if you also think that god is love would you then believe in god.  But you don't - you're an atheist.  Saying "God is love" for you is on the level of saying "Ghosts are love" or "The tooth fairy is love".  You're under no rational obligation to believe logical consequences from statements you specifically deny or hold as nonsensical.





What I'm saying is that given this person's definition of god, I too believe in god.  And yes, it is a ridiculous as saying "ghosts are love."  If ghosts are love, then I believe in ghosts as well.




Ah, that makes sense.  I guess the traditional deist response would be to say that you do believe in god - just that you have a stubborn refusal to either accept it or recognize it as such.  As the early Christian church leader Paul said, "What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse."  As the pantheists would say, since you believe in the universe, you do believe in God - but again, you just refuse to accept this.  I don't mean to argue either of these points, only to use them to explain.

Quote:

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Did you at all read the passage from the Gospel of John?  I'm not conflating ideas here - I'm specifically arguing that God as concept and God as being are the same thing - a property which almost all deists hold as fundamental to the idea of God.  As Christians put it, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I'm not conflating the "concept of God" with God at all, because "the concept of God" is not God, while "God as concept" is. In the same way, my concept of America is not the same thing as the buildings, people, land, etc. that compose America - my concept of America is not America.  However, the nation of America - which is only a concept - is the same thing as the physical incarnation of America - the people, the land, etc.





I never said that a (your) concept of America is america.  Your concept of america is a concept of america.  The "nation of America," is a thing, not a concept.  The concept of the "nation of America" is a concept.




The nation of America is a concept - it is not merely the physical thing.  It's the same way you are not merely your body - you are an abstraction, a collection of consciousness (an emergent property resulting from the configuration of your atoms but not simply those atoms) and prior actions and relationships with people and the world.

Quote:

And there are concepts of those things
It does not make any sense to say that the thing is the concept itself.




Why not?  In many cases the thing isn't the concept, but in many cases it is - love is a concept, peace is a concept, happiness is a concept, nations are concepts, people are concepts, sports teams are concepts, money is a concept.  They are abstractions.  They are descriptions of things which are sometimes physical but which are more than just physical things - when I talk about Real Madrid, the team is physically composed of the players, but the team is more than that - it is a particular relationship those players share as well. Money is a physical object, but it is also an abstraction - it is a store of value.  And a dollar is both.  There is no confusing of concepts and things there.

Quote:

It doesn't matter what some people, who know less about the world than anybody that you or I will ever meet, wrote in a book during the bronze age.




Well, normally, but if we're talking about the beliefs of people whose ideas are profoundly shaped by bronze-age writings, I'd say it's relevant.

Quote:

After all of this, you still haven't addressed the thing that I find most irritating - the fact that you called me dogmatic numerous times.  Do you still think I'm being dogmatic, given that I have stated that I'll change my views in a heart beat if presented with evidence for god?




I think you have confused me for SeaShrooms, though I'm unsure what sort of server error caused his username to replace mine.  I haven't used the word dogma once.  This is only barely on topic, but the philosopher Bertrand Russell, when asked what he would do if he died and ended up facing God, being asked why he didn't believe, said that he would say, "Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence!"


--------------------


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17792481 - 02/12/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, actually I apologize. I mistook you for SeaShrooms.  i've been trying to take on a lot of people at once here.  I'll go back and read what you wrote shortly.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/12/13 09:55 PM)


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792501 - 02/12/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

wow i never said any of that...


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17792515 - 02/12/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

This thread is so fucking deranged!

xD


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17792530 - 02/12/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Really wish I remembered how to un-follow a thread, talking to close minded people is such a waste of time...


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17792656 - 02/12/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
I spoke wrongly, but that actually makes my point more clear: disbelief in God is required to be an atheist; lack of belief is not.  A lack of evidence for the existence of 3 is, to fix the analogy, similarly not sufficient to be an athree-ist, since that would require disbelief.





Here you're wrong.  A lack of belief is all that is required to be an atheist.  You and I are both atoothfairiests (are you not?).  But I (you?) don't disbelieve in the toothfairy. 

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
That X was meant to be a stand-in for any appropriate noun you could throw in.  The same way people go, "Imagine that person A does blah blah to person B, does person B have the right to blahdiblah"





I understood what you meant. It's still not right. A concept is a concept. A concept of "x" is a concept. 

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Ah, that makes sense.  I guess the traditional deist response would be to say that you do believe in god - just that you have a stubborn refusal to either accept it or recognize it as such.  As the early Christian church leader Paul said, "What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse."  As the pantheists would say, since you believe in the universe, you do believe in God - but again, you just refuse to accept this.  I don't mean to argue either of these points, only to use them to explain.





I just don't understand why people feel the need to stick with the word "god."  It's just semantics anyways.  If we've watered down "god" to just being "love" or "happiness," then I don't see what the word really means anymore.  That's the only real difference I have with a pantheist.  They choose to use the word "god," basically to mean "that which we don't understand."


Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
The nation of America is a concept - it is not merely the physical thing.  It's the same way you are not merely your body - you are an abstraction, a collection of consciousness (an emergent property resulting from the configuration of your atoms but not simply those atoms) and prior actions and relationships with people and the world.





Again, America is not a concept.  Only a concept of "x" is a concept.  As for not merely being my body, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.  I'm a materialist myself, and think we are just atoms.  If there is something else, then what is it?

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Why not?  In many cases the thing isn't the concept, but in many cases it is - love is a concept, peace is a concept, happiness is a concept, nations are concepts, people are concepts, sports teams are concepts, money is a concept.  They are abstractions.  They are descriptions of things which are sometimes physical but which are more than just physical things - when I talk about Real Madrid, the team is physically composed of the players, but the team is more than that - it is a particular relationship those players share as well. Money is a physical object, but it is also an abstraction - it is a store of value.  And a dollar is both.  There is no confusing of concepts and things there.





If somebody says to me in conversation that "peace is a concept", I go with them and know what they mean.  In conversational english, it's fine.  But technically, a concept of peace is a concept.  However, a word like "peace," does not describe a physical entity anyway.  It is, as you say, more abstract.  It is more loosely defined, and therefore, it's definition could be taken to mean "concept of peace".

But an apple is not a concept.  And so if you want to put god in the category of words like "love," "peace," "happiness," etc....then fine, but that's just an admission that it's not a physical being.

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Well, normally, but if we're talking about the beliefs of people whose ideas are profoundly shaped by bronze-age writings, I'd say it's relevant.





The bible is important in understanding history.  But there's no reason to believe that anything in it is inherently true, or relevant in today's world....other than in the context of understanding history.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/12/13 10:31 PM)


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17792663 - 02/12/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Really wish I remembered how to un-follow a thread, talking to close minded people is such a waste of time...




I apologize, I mixed you up with sonamdrukpa.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792672 - 02/12/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

No i just don't like leaving anything in my threadlist unexamined, really wanna unfollow this.


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792744 - 02/12/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
I spoke wrongly, but that actually makes my point more clear: disbelief in God is required to be an atheist; lack of belief is not.  A lack of evidence for the existence of 3 is, to fix the analogy, similarly not sufficient to be an athree-ist, since that would require disbelief.





I don't think I responded well enough to this last time.  You can't compare 3 to "god." That is a category error.  3 is a concept.  Here it's appropriate to say that, as I explained with "peace." So if you want to say that "god," too, is just a concept, then fine.  But then it's not a physical entity.  If you want a more accurate analogy, just take the tooth fairy (defined for this purpose as a physical entity). 

Do you believe in the tooth fairy?  If not, would you call yourself an a-toothfairyest?  I would. 

If you think god is a physical entity, then compare it to a physical entity
If you think god is a concept, then compare it to a concept.

But you can't have it both ways.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17795362 - 02/13/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
The part that said "re: sVs".
Thanks for playing, smart guy.




Lol ah you got me. From now on, all my poops will be standing up as a sign of your victory. I'm not even sure how that's on there. My original post doesn't have a quote from you and I was responding to the OP. I may go back and address your points that I still haven't seen at some time in the future but at this moment it seems futile.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17795671 - 02/13/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

teknix said:
He would rather define god before denying god. It is the only logical route.




So there's this thing "god," that I must admit exists...then I just have to define it however I can rationalize it?

Why do some people feel they must cling on to this thing called "god," and just define it however they want?

What if I say "I have a word called      ."  You have to believe in this thing called "      ."  You can define it in whatever abstract way you want, but you must say you believe in it.


The only difference between Einstein's version of pantheism and atheism is that he said the word "god" a few times.  Other than that, the Idea of "god" did not affect his world view. 

Here is Einstein
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Yes, he defined god as personal then decided that it wasn't true when weighing the evidence provided for personal gods, yet it doesn't say there is not god in general.

You can't go from testing a specific definition of god and use the to determine god in general. That specific to general fallacy or composition fallacy.

The fact is that you can't say there is not a god if you simply just lack belief in god. A true athiest will say there is not a god. There is a difference and you refuse to see it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17795682 - 02/13/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

If you lack a belief in god then you would be agnostic. Because you don't know either way. If you disbelieve in god then you are athiest.


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