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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28617658 - 01/11/24 01:49 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: I view atheism as a claim that God does not exist, A- meaning without and Theism essentially meaning Divine Cause.
I addressed this in more detail earlier.
Regardless of what you think atheism is, it is up to what the individual believes the term to mean.
I call myself an agnostic atheist.
I don’t believe in any one particular god or religion, but I know enough to know that I could never rationally claim that god doesn’t exist.
What would you call me if I’m not an atheist to you?
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Nillion
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Posts: 1,000
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz]
#28617659 - 01/11/24 01:50 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Well that's the rub. To perhaps contradict myself a bit, revering nature means revering all aspects of nature, being the totality of everything, or revering nature means revering aspects we like or find agreeable or wonderful while disliking aspects that seem awful?
I'll get shit for this and have in the past.
In the representation of the Goddess Earth every form of animal is hers, every claw and fang. Her's is war and death, love and hate, compassion and cruelty etc. She has so many forms and names in this way, that over time have become confused into different forms. It's an interesting topic. We are of her flesh, we are her body, her eyes and her hands. She is the divine bride. The babe, maiden and crone. She has been baptized with fire and with water. Our rites of baptism developed from this. I could write extensively upon this subject, and have privately. The point here is that one cannot pick and choose what in nature is sacred and what is profane.
Nor does that excuse malevolent choice as something okay because such choices are natural. Not only are monsters natural and sacred, so is hunting and killing them. The instinct for justice is also sacred and natural.
The topic of blame relates, a lotta folks blame Satan for bad things, like losing their car keys, and thank God when they find those keys.
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Bardy] 1
#28617667 - 01/11/24 01:57 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: I call myself an agnostic atheist.
I don’t believe in any one particular god or religion, but I know enough to know that I could never rationally claim that god doesn’t exist.
What would you call me if I’m not an atheist to you?
An agnostic atheist.
This is in contrast to the older definition of agnostic as someone who believes in God but also who believes that God is unknowable. You don't believe in God but don't believe that the question of God can even be answered.
I'd also offer that is a very logical position. I don't agree with the premise of the thread that atheism is the only rational position but I can agree to the idea that agnostic atheism is the most rational position that most people can have.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28617670 - 01/11/24 01:59 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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IQuote:
Nillion said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Well that's the rub. To perhaps contradict myself a bit, revering nature means revering all aspects of nature, being the totality of everything, or revering nature means revering aspects we like or find agreeable or wonderful while disliking aspects that seem awful?
I'll get shit for this and have in the past.
In the representation of the Goddess Earth every form of animal is hers, every claw and fang. Her's is war and death, love and hate, compassion and cruelty etc. She has so many forms and names in this way, that over time have become confused into different forms. It's an interesting topic. We are of her flesh, we are her body, her eyes and her hands. She is the divine bride. The babe, maiden and crone. She has been baptized with fire and with water. Our rites of baptism developed from this. I could write extensively upon this subject, and have privately. The point here is that one cannot pick and choose what in nature is sacred and what is profane.
Nor does that excuse malevolent choice as something okay because such choices are natural. Not only are monsters natural and sacred, so is hunting and killing them. The instinct for justice is also sacred and natural.
The topic of blame relates, a lotta folks blame Satan for bad things, like losing their car keys, and thank God when they find those keys.
I have a similar view. I use the term life because the word represents something dynamic, changing and evolving. I include the whole universe under that term.
Seeing everything as interdependent, the whole of it is beautiful and terrible and terribly beautiful. Its horrible and wonderful and wonderfully horrible.
I see this in my own life, even the death of loved ones is beautiful, but not in the way many people would use the word.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28617674 - 01/11/24 02:01 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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In Taoism we also see things like this, as polar, that both yin and yang are part of wuji and taiji.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28617678 - 01/11/24 02:05 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: In Taoism we also see things like this, as polar, that both yin and yang are part of wuji and taiji.
cool, I hope i can remember to go down that rabbit hole.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28617686 - 01/11/24 02:09 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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wuji and taji sound like a great desert pudding I am being irreverent naturally
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Peopleschoice
Novice Shroom grower

Registered: 12/23/23
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28617744 - 01/11/24 03:10 PM (16 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Very well said by einstein. But why use the word "god" here, by saying that he thinks of the word "god" to represent the mysteries of nature he could just say he believes in "the mysteries of nature" that alone is enough. But if he desires a singular word to express his idea of this then god would be the closest thing to it in the english language. Side note, I do agree with Svetaketu here when he says it personifies those forces into the thing, person for a christian, that is god.
The evidence for the casual force behind nature, physics and math included, are evident and clear. We then enter the debate of if those forces that we can prove were discovered or created. I would say we discovered them as these things have existed for the entire time humans have been alive, and we merely put names and numbers next to them so we could understand them with our brains.
I do not disagree that this so called "god" that einstein is argueing for is false or untrue. I am arguing that the abrahamic god is a lie, argued over for hundreds of years with no physical prove that something that resembles the same image as us exist. I say same image simply because of the bible.
If the argument was "there are forces out there that is the sum of everything we can't control as humans", and people have written books about it before we had modern day math and physics to explain these forces with literature. Then of course I would agree but they would have to concede that this abrahamic god was a fairytale like most greek gods and only told so humans would treat each other with respect.
So to sum up my points, I think Einstein used the word god because it was easier to say god than create a new word or just say flat out that the forces we experience in this world are provable with physics and math but we still don't know everything, because at the end of the day we are just on a floating rock. But I would agree that the definition of god given there is valid for what he is trying to achieve, there is evidence for it everywhere you look.
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I am curious to why you don't think we get to choose our own meaning in life. I am not saying we aren't important but I probably would say in today's age we don't exactly fit anywhere into the hierarchy of the animal kingdom besides the very top. Are you trying to say the meaning of our lives are the same as ever other animal, to eat, drink, and survive? or are you genuinely arguing that we can't find meaning in a hobby or work that we do and must admit that we are bounded by our biological meaning. I've just never heard someone say that so really interested.
Hopefully this reply doesn't sound rude, I have a problem where when I read back what I type I read it in a negative tone and I'm not sure if others do as well.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Peopleschoice]
#28617753 - 01/11/24 03:26 PM (16 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Peopleschoice said: I am arguing that the abrahamic god is a lie, argued over for hundreds of years with no physical prove that something that resembles the same image as us exist.
I think that opinion indicates sanity.
Quote:
Peopleschoice said: I am curious to why you don't think we get to choose our own meaning in life. I am not saying we aren't important but I probably would say in today's age we don't exactly fit anywhere into the hierarchy of the animal kingdom besides the very top. Are you trying to say the meaning of our lives are the same as ever other animal, to eat, drink, and survive? or are you genuinely arguing that we can't find meaning in a hobby or work that we do and must admit that we are bounded by our biological meaning. I've just never heard someone say that so really interested.
You understand it. I am saying that the purpose of life is the same for all life.
I love that we, more than any other creature we know, are able to find causes to serve. In this sense, the path of our lives is as a choose your own adventure story. We have more options than most.
I just dislike the philosophies or perspectives that place humanity at the center of existence. In a narrow sense the idea that we choose our meaning in life is used by those who argue for human supremacy or who claim that reality is literally made by humans existing. It is this narrow sense I object to.
Quote:
Peopleschoice said: Hopefully this reply doesn't sound rude, I have a problem where when I read back what I type I read it in a negative tone and I'm not sure if others do as well.
I'm intellectually aggressive but love everyone.
I hope people do not mistake my disagreement or value judgement of positions with contempt or animosity towards whose who maintain such positions. Written words are challenging in terms of conveyance. I find myself frequently frustrated with the limitations of language and am aware that I don't use it nearly well enough to feel like I am competent when it comes to writing.
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cubedryeguy
Stranger


Registered: 07/24/15
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28617758 - 01/11/24 03:31 PM (16 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Your irreverence is a natural part of the totality of universal being.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cubedryeguy]
#28617767 - 01/11/24 03:40 PM (16 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
cubedryeguy said: Your irreverence is a natural part of the totality of universal being.
And how!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28617846 - 01/11/24 05:16 PM (16 days, 20 hours ago) |
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we fit on the top of what. what kind of hierarchy are you thinking of? an illustration of the tree of life? an accounting of the greatest damage to the ecosphere?
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28617863 - 01/11/24 05:28 PM (16 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between Eh? and Oh?
Is dhamma just a form of dogma?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28618037 - 01/11/24 07:52 PM (16 days, 17 hours ago) |
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dhamma is what a falling leaf teaches you, or it is what the Buddha said.
it can be dogma, it depends who is barking and out of which end.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28618080 - 01/11/24 08:34 PM (16 days, 17 hours ago) |
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In that case:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: we fit on the top of what.
?
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redgreenvines said: what kind of hierarchy are you thinking of?
The kind that involved authority structuring. Take 僧正坊 (Sōjōbō) for example, by adding Dai to Tengu one gets Daitengu. He is often considered the God of Tengu, by way of hierarchy of authority. However, that is enough about Garuda for now. Maybe I will return to this topic when I address its relationship to the Aztec Eagle warriors and the masked warrior traditions of Andean cultures? I doubt I will make those presentations public, but it is fun to tease them.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: an illustration of the tree of life?
The Kabbalic version or the older obscure version it was made from?
Or the tree of life from the allegory of Eden? It's fruit is Dhamma, but in that sense it is not dogma.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: an accounting of the greatest damage to the ecosphere?
The human chapter of the book of Earth is not as consequential as it feels from within it's pages.
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28618339 - 01/12/24 06:01 AM (16 days, 7 hours ago) |
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This has been a good read, I'd love to participate but I'd rather not  
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28626081 - 01/18/24 03:51 PM (9 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: I can't claim to know there is no god, but I do personally believe there is no god. I believe this with the same level of certainty that I believe there is no tooth fairy. I don't like to call myself agnostic about god for the same reason you don't like to call yourself agnostic regarding the tooth fairy.
It seems that the word "atheist" is generally misunderstood. Over the course of this thread, I have heard that "atheists claim to know that there is no god" countless times. There might be a very small minority of self proclaimed atheists that claim this. But believe me, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well (if only as a technicality). It is those who have not taken the time to understand the atheist position who see it as dogmatic.
If the word "agnostic" was generally understood to mean someone who does not believe in " " until they see evidence for it, I would use the word "agnostic." And of course, that is what agnostic means. But if society understood it to mean that, then the word "agnostic" would have the same negative connotation as atheism. Society takes "agnostic" to mean "well ya never know." That's why you wouldn't feel comfortable (I'm assuming) calling yourself "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are one. You wouldn't feel comfortable saying "You never know" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are agnostic about it. Yet you do feel comfortable saying you "don't believe" in the tooth fairy.
Now imagine someone coming along and trying to pigeonhole your beliefs - either you label yourself as "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, or you have an unreasonable disbelief in the tooth fairy. That's what it feels like to be an atheist.
I like your comparison between god and the tooth fairy. However, there is a big difference between them: one apparently created the universe and the other didn't. Thus, I definitely don't believe in the tooth fairy. However, I am agnostic with regards to god because if god didn't create the universe then what did?
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  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/18/24 03:52 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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God is just the tooth fairies uncle
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sudly] 1
#28626182 - 01/18/24 04:53 PM (9 days, 20 hours ago) |
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could the universe have created itself, and is it inclined to repeat the show? loopy?
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



Registered: 09/30/11
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28626191 - 01/18/24 05:01 PM (9 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: could the universe have created itself, and is it inclined to repeat the show? loopy?
To me, that's just as plausible as a god having created it.
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  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
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