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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17791179 - 02/12/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
The op is the worst troll in this conversation honestly.



Quote:

teknix said:
To analyze both a baby and it's relation to atheism, how do you suppose to go about it without comparing them?

You are giving the baby the label of atheist, you haven't shown it is and how would you ever without a legitimate comparison?




How can you compare a baby to atheism? I don't even understand what's being asked.

I'll just say this.  If someone is not a theist specifically, then they are an atheist.  That's what atheism means - non-theism.  So unless the baby is actively a theist, it's appropriate to call it an atheist.  It's a default position.




The default position is the mothers position, until the baby makes its own choice.


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17791250 - 02/12/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

Does said:
the answer is both are important, how important is a matter of opinion





Yup. Just like my original statement.



no. actually you said physical is more important. here.
Quote:

GilbertC06 said: It's dependent on physical ability more.




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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17791758 - 02/12/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:

Jesus Christ, that's some nerve, saying I didn't address your points when I specifically did and then you go and ignore key bits of evidence for mine such as the gospel of john.





Well it's funny that you should comment on that now, seeing as it was written all the way back at...page 6.  That just shows that you haven't been reading what I wrote.  But maybe you just didn't want to comment back then...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. 

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
It is a grammatically correct sentence - please tell me what rules of grammar I've supposedly broken.





My point is that it's like saying "three is an apple."  I guess it's correct grammatically, but saying "god is a concept" still doesn't make sense. 

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Do you understand what the word "necessary" means?  If you lack something necessary for belief, then it's impossible by the definition of necessary to believe.





Disbelief is different than lack of a belief.

....

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
What type of crazy grammar do you subscribe to?  "X is a concept" is a syntactically well-formed sentence.

Here's another metaphor, because you seem really confused in these posts:  "America" is a concept.  I can also have a concept of America, but the America itself is a still concept - it is an abstraction, in the same way that peace is an abstraction, or numbers.  Here is the wiki on "concept" if you need some reference.  God is an abstract idea as well.  There are also conceptions of God, but they are not what I was referring to, and I made it perfectly clear that I was avoiding such confusion.





No, "x" is not a concept.  "America" is not a concept either.  The concept of "america" is a concept.  It is you who is confused.


Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
No - only if you also think that god is love would you then believe in god.  But you don't - you're an atheist.  Saying "God is love" for you is on the level of saying "Ghosts are love" or "The tooth fairy is love".  You're under no rational obligation to believe logical consequences from statements you specifically deny or hold as nonsensical.





What I'm saying is that given this person's definition of god, I too believe in god.  And yes, it is a ridiculous as saying "ghosts are love."  If ghosts are love, then I believe in ghosts as well.

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Most deists do.




Well if someone thinks that "god is love," I wouldn't call the a deist. 

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Did you at all read the passage from the Gospel of John?  I'm not conflating ideas here - I'm specifically arguing that God as concept and God as being are the same thing - a property which almost all deists hold as fundamental to the idea of God.  As Christians put it, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I'm not conflating the "concept of God" with God at all, because "the concept of God" is not God, while "God as concept" is. In the same way, my concept of America is not the same thing as the buildings, people, land, etc. that compose America - my concept of America is not America.  However, the nation of America - which is only a concept - is the same thing as the physical incarnation of America - the people, the land, etc.





I never said that a (your) concept of America is america.  Your concept of america is a concept of america.  The "nation of America," is a thing, not a concept.  The concept of the "nation of America" is a concept. 

There are things
And there are concepts of those things
It does not make any sense to say that the thing is the concept itself.

It doesn't matter what some people, who know less about the world than anybody that you or I will ever meet, wrote in a book during the bronze age. 

After all of this, you still haven't addressed the thing that I find most irritating - the fact that you called me dogmatic numerous times.  Do you still think I'm being dogmatic, given that I have stated that I'll change my views in a heart beat if presented with evidence for god?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17791769 - 02/12/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree that limiting myself to Atheism is rational. What is rational about limiting my imagination? I feel claustrophobic with limitation. Random belief systems are the only rational position. I have the potential to believe anything. I might as well see what it is like to experience all belief systems. A being consists of many personalities. While this empty, sad, atheist personality pretty much dominates most of my existence, I will not cling to it.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17791790 - 02/12/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
I disagree that limiting myself to Atheism is rational. What is rational about limiting my imagination? I feel claustrophobic with limitation. Random belief systems are the only rational position. I have the potential to believe anything. I might as well see what it is like to experience all belief systems. A being consists of many personalities. While this empty, sad, atheist personality pretty much dominates most of my existence, I will not cling to it.




I too, have an imagination.  And it's not a limited one (these things are all relative.)  But I don't confuse things that I imagine with reality.

You're the one who has decided that atheism is sad.  I don't see it that way.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Does]
    #17791901 - 02/12/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

Does said:
the answer is both are important, how important is a matter of opinion





Yup. Just like my original statement.



no. actually you said physical is more important. here.
Quote:

GilbertC06 said: It's dependent on physical ability more.








and you said:

Quote:

how important is a matter of opinion




Exactly.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17791908 - 02/12/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What is so sad or empty about atheism?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17791917 - 02/12/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The same thing that is sad about theism; delusion, arrogance, naivety.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix] * 1
    #17791921 - 02/12/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Could you elaborate? I don't usually acknowledge empty rhetoric, sorry.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17791945 - 02/12/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Claiming certainty over something that is incomplete or uncertain is all of those things.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17791962 - 02/12/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ahh the original argument once again.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17791984 - 02/12/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Atheism is retarded. How'd you get here? Magic? Science? The fact of the matter is you're here right now because of something, not nothing.

It's been my experience that atheists aren't really atheists anyway. They're usually mad at God and whatever Christian themed ideas they've made it out to be. If life didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, "fuck God, I'm an atheist now." I suppose it's good if they start accepting that they are responsible for their own problems, but the whole notion of what God is supposed to be in a religious context is flawed. Loving, wrathful, judging, condemning, creating, and destroying are all traits that we share. We are the Gods in that sense.

As far as proof as what the creator is, Einstein said it pretty damn well.

β€œCoincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
- Albert Einstein, 'The World as I See It'


Where do you think your new ideas come from that pop up in your head without you consciously creating them, particularly the ones that you don't have a backing for meaning that you lack the information to put the idea together consciously, let alone subconsciously?

Science?

Save us science, for we are ignorant.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ara16w]
    #17792012 - 02/12/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

:rofl:
More angry, empty rhetoric.
I asked none of those things, and while amusing, your tangents address none of my concerns.
Since this is turning far too circular, I'll let you folks have it from here.
:cheers:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17792038 - 02/12/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
:rofl:
More angry, empty rhetoric.
I asked none of those things, and while amusing, your tangents address none of my concerns.
Since this is turning far too circular, I'll let you folks have it from here.
:cheers:




So you say . . .


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ara16w]
    #17792049 - 02/12/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
The op is the worst troll in this conversation honestly.



Quote:

Ara16w said:
Atheism is retarded. How'd you get here? Magic? Science? The fact of the matter is you're here right now because of something, not nothing.

It's been my experience that atheists aren't really atheists anyway. They're usually mad at God and whatever Christian themed ideas they've made it out to be. If life didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, "fuck God, I'm an atheist now." I suppose it's good if they start accepting that they are responsible for their own problems, but the whole notion of what God is supposed to be in a religious context is flawed. Loving, wrathful, judging, condemning, creating, and destroying are all traits that we share. We are the Gods in that sense.

As far as proof as what the creator is, Einstein said it pretty damn well.

β€œCoincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
- Albert Einstein, 'The World as I See It'


Where do you think your new ideas come from that pop up in your head without you consciously creating them, particularly the ones that you don't have a backing for meaning that you lack the information to put the idea together consciously, let alone subconsciously?

Science?

Save us science, for we are ignorant.




The most amusing post so far.  :bow2:

I never decided to become an atheist.  This might be hard for some of you to understand, but I was never indoctrinated into believing in any kind of deity.  I have never seen a reason to believe in "god," and to be honest, I can't even imagine what it's like to believe in god.

Albert Einstein was an atheist for all practical purposes.  So you shouldn't use his quotes to back up your belief in god.  Einstein used the word "god" in a poetic way on a few occasions.  But near the end of his life, he made it clear that he was not a theist and was concerned about his quotes being misused.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17792056 - 02/12/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Ahh the original argument once again.




So seashrooms, you still think I'm dogmatic?  Or are you going to stop using that word to describe atheists?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17792080 - 02/12/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
What is so sad or empty about atheism?




I did not mean that atheism is sad and empty, just my experience of it is. When no Goddess appears to liven things up, the boredom continues.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17792081 - 02/12/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

And exactly how many definitions of god have you looked at? Einstein wasn't atheist, he was a pantheist.


"
Pantheism is the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity.[2]

In 2008, Albert Einstein's 1954 German letter in which he dismissed belief in a personal God was auctioned off for more than US$330,000. Einstein wrote, "We followers of Spinoza see our God in the wonderful order and lawfulness of all that exists and in its soul ("Beseeltheit") as it reveals itself in man and animal," in a letter to Eduard BΓΌsching (25 October 1929) after BΓΌsching sent Einstein a copy of his book Es gibt keinen Gott. Einstein responded that the book only dealt with the concept of a personal God and not the impersonal God of pantheism. "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly," he wrote in another letter in 1954.[31]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17792093 - 02/12/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I suspected as much, but I wasn't certain.
Thanks. :cheers:


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17792098 - 02/12/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
And exactly how many definitions of god have you looked at? Einstein wasn't atheist, he was a pantheist.





Call it what you want.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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