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OnlineFreedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
    #28617412 - 01/11/24 09:22 AM (17 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:


Atheists often seem to be just another type of closed minded and close hearted zealot or religious fanatic.




The loud mouths aren't necessarily a representative sample.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
    #28617417 - 01/11/24 09:35 AM (17 days, 4 hours ago)

in this image just taken of my door handle at the apartment where we are staying, the outdoor half of the door handle appears to have a black form with a squishy clear rubber grip, like some kind of fish lure or child's toy.
but on closer examination, I can see that the handle outside is all black, and the squishy trsanslucent plastic grip is not really there, it is a double reflection via two sheets of glass in the door of the white plastic handle inside, but the appearance is semi transparent as the reflection only partially covers the view of the out door handle.

this may not be clear to everyone at a glance.
I had to sit with the view for a moment to puzzle it together.
Someone else may have different interpretations of the world that this view corroborates, including one in which there is a squishy spiritual side to all things, and this door to a mini patio is symbolic of that universal truth.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OnlineFreedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28617426 - 01/11/24 09:50 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

I have a squishy spiritual view of all things, and I've always found one word fits best, 'miracle'.

Its funny, both religion and science can be used to explain away the mystery, or to recognize, explore, play and wonder with it.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
    #28617427 - 01/11/24 09:51 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Nillion said:


Atheists often seem to be just another type of closed minded and close hearted zealot or religious fanatic.




The loud mouths aren't necessarily a representative sample.




I can believe that.


RGV, isn't my point that there is more than one valid perspective and that categorical dismissals are unwise?

That is my point, after all.


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OfflinePeopleschoice
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
    #28617470 - 01/11/24 10:29 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

haha no, computer science but I do enjoy thinking about philosophy as someone who suffers from depression I must reassure myself that life truly is meaningless and I must search for a meaning myself.

I define the word "God" as the one used commonly in america and europe to represent the abrahamic singular god.

I understand you wrote another reply after, so I will continue my point there.


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:rolljoint:


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Peopleschoice]
    #28617483 - 01/11/24 10:39 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Peopleschoice said:
haha no, computer science but I do enjoy thinking about philosophy as someone who suffers from depression I must reassure myself that life truly is meaningless and I must search for a meaning myself.




I love it!

I don't think life is meaningless, but I also don't think we get to choose the meaning, I think we have the same importance of any form of life, ants, bacteria, fish etc.

Quote:

Peopleschoice said:
I define the word "God" as the one used commonly in america and europe to represent the abrahamic singular god.




In the sense of that God I am also an atheist.

Quote:

Peopleschoice said:
I understand you wrote another reply after, so I will continue my point there.




I look forward to it!


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
    #28617527 - 01/11/24 11:35 AM (17 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Einstein said:I no longer believed in the known God of the Bible, but rather in the mysterious God expressed in nature.




So here is a definition of God, as the causal force behind nature and the laws of physics. The evidence for this God is the existence of said nature and said laws.

Evidence exists and has been presented, we have a claimant, here Albert Einstein, and he has defined God. In the context of this information your argument is evinced to be spurious and arguably; trite.




Can we dig into this a bit?

Mysterious isn't really a definition, more like a description of a lack of definition.

The fact that nature exists and appears to have discernable laws is not evidence that there is a unified mysterious causal force behind it. That's sort of a nonsense jump.

For example, I could say I believe there is a mysterious force I call Todd, and Todd caused it to snow last night. I can prove that it snowed, therefore I have evidence of Todd?

No, I have evidence of snow.

If you're telling me that God and Todd are just placeholder words for the underlying mechanisms that cause things to happen in our cosmos, then why are we personifying them?

Nearly all definition listed in the Oxford dictionary tie God to something that is at the very least, sentient.

So how exactly is God the right word to describe what we're talking about here? Did Albert think this mysterious causal force was sentient? Do you?


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28617564 - 01/11/24 12:22 PM (17 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:

Can we dig into this a bit?

Mysterious isn't really a definition, more like a description of a lack of definition.

The fact that nature exists and appears to have discernable laws is not evidence that there is a unified mysterious causal force behind it. That's sort of a nonsense jump.



Is the concept of causality in Science nonsensical?
I disagree but can respect your opinion.

Quote:

Einstein said:The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events — that is, if he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously.




This claim of causality is not a claim that the Universe is consistent because of supernatural or paranormal entities.


Quote:

Svetaketu said:

For example, I could say I believe there is a mysterious force I call Todd, and Todd caused it to snow last night. I can prove that it snowed, therefore I have evidence of Todd?



This is the same strawman you used last time.
It is equally fallacious here as it was previously.

The issue stems from the idea that God is imaginary and without property and thus something imaginary and without property can be substituted for it. One cannot consider a claim by creating a straw man of it and then considering the straw man.

As for snow, we know how it works and there is no lack of explanation for the phenomena. Consider that when it comes to the structure of the universe that there is less that is known about this and one of the men who knows more about this than you or I considered that there was a reason that the universe has consistent structure and that is related to causality. It's not a woo claim at all.

Consider that one of the past evidences of God was biodiversity, the evidence was real, but the cause was not creation, rather it was genetics. Causality is real, though often our explanations for it are limited and prone to error. The Todd analogy is flawed because we know how snow forms. One might say Todd is also behind the scenes making 2+2 equal 4. It is extraneous.  This isn't the case with the concept of God that Einstein shares.


Quote:

Svetaketu said:
If you're telling me that God and Todd are just placeholder words for the underlying mechanisms that cause things to happen in our cosmos, then why are we personifying them?



The God of Einstein isn't anthropomorphized or personified.
It isn't a claim about a supernatural deity, persona or entity.
It is a claim of what can be called a higher power.

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
So how exactly is God the right word to describe what we're talking about here? Did Albert think this mysterious causal force was sentient? Do you?



I cannot speak to what he thinks on that other than to say that he reported no belief in a personal God. For me, sentience is a property of biological awareness and no other thing, but I also use distinct categories that relate to this. In those terms the Universe meets a definition of mine related to what we call life and can be considered a form of life by my criteria, but not a form of biological life. Life isn't the idea word there either, rather I use the term autoid, which is a category for self sustaining and autonomous chemical reactions, of which life is a type of. It would take more time and effort to relate the the criteria and material here and I don't think I want to put it online, but I view sentience as an aspect of cellular life. That relates to my own understanding of and theory of consciousness, but lets just relate that there is nothing supernatural or spiritual about that theory. In fact I believe much of my own theory is compatible with the theory of mind that RedGreenVines shares here.

Certainly I do not make any claim that the Universe is as it is because God wills it to be so. Nor do I believe that Einstein's position can be described properly as such.


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OnlineFreedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28617574 - 01/11/24 12:30 PM (17 days, 1 hour ago)

causality only gets you so far

what causes causality?


an acausal cause? in infinte chain of causality without a first cause?

all the theories and belief systems seem to be groundless


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28617577 - 01/11/24 12:36 PM (17 days, 1 hour ago)

Einstein was not mapping all kinds of abilities to god as nature (similar to Spinoza's god as nature perhaps) other than how nature is already.
Nature is full of mysteries and totally deserving of study.

it does not make sense to give nature another name, that is just misdirection and to imagine reasons for weather and lightning that are not in nature is also not performing a good service to your neighbors or children.

When there were no other books available, the bible was worth reading, not that it had answers to questions, but still worth keeping for the language stabilizing influence, learning one's letters, etc.


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28617582 - 01/11/24 12:40 PM (17 days, 1 hour ago)

I prefer "reality". What is reality? Everything and all potential.

This may produce a sense of being a part of something greater... but what? Something profound? Something not profound? A person will naturally want more information, but any further description of what it is necessarily connotates what it isn't.

To Nillion and Einstein's credit their definition of God is more expansive and doesn't inherently connotate what God is not. I don't see the utility in such expanse. While I see utility in further description it also tends to be dubious. I mentioned my friends use, and it's meaningful to him. That is fine. I have had similar experience of awe and wonder and profundity. I don't need to identify a causative force. I don't know if there is a causative force. I'm not saying the idea doesn't make sense but it relates to human thought. Humans make things, therefore things are made. Humans do things, therefore what's done has a doer. Humans can see hierarchy in personal and social sense. But does reality have a maker, a doer, a hierarchy? These questions indicate limitation of information and understanding but perhaps not all questions have answers.

I don't know. I want to know! What is it?!

I don't know. That's okay. The silence is profound at times. Adding words doesn't make it more so, for me. In silence there is no necessity of mystery. What are these questions that arise and why do they disturb my silence? Perhaps best to have a gentle smile and let the questions slip from the mind.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
    #28617583 - 01/11/24 12:42 PM (17 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
causality only gets you so far

what causes causality?


an acausal cause? in infinte chain of causality without a first cause?

all the theories and belief systems seem to be groundless



Linear time paradox.
All concepts of origins based in linear time suffer from this.
The paradox disappears when one inserts relativity into the explanation, for it teaches us that the linear aspect of time is a relative thing and not an inherent property of the universe.
This changes the origin from past to concurrent and relative in terms of position. That's the simple explanation at least. The full version is far too extensive to share casually online.

It also relates to issues with final cause and effect, or the human idea that the Universe is a thing oriented around Human existence. The pinnacle of our arrogance being the claim that our species itself creates reality by perceiving it or that reality is manufactured specifically for humans to experience. They are popular and romantic notions but they appear to be rooted in ego.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28617596 - 01/11/24 12:59 PM (17 days, 46 minutes ago)

I do not think it is dubious to revere nature as holy and worth observing.


--------------------
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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #28617608 - 01/11/24 01:06 PM (17 days, 39 minutes ago)

There is another view. I had hoped to elicit it from another but will present it here:

It is that Einstein recognized the inherent flaws of organized religion, as well as the explanatory role that it served in the past and so conceived of science as a cosmic religion in its ability to provide meaningful answers. In this religion can be seen as a primitive science and science can be seen as the evolved form of religion, a way to investigate causality in meaningful and useful ways.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28617617 - 01/11/24 01:17 PM (17 days, 28 minutes ago)

I'm not saying causality is nonsensical, I'm saying that describing causality as a mysterious God, and then saying that existence itself is evidence of this mysterious force called God is at best a semantic rigamarole and at worst intentionally confusing.

If you're talking about causality, then why not use the word causality? Why is the word God entering this discussion at all?

Higher power is generally defined as a god or divine being. I guess you can call causality a high power, but is there any sensical reason to do so?


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #28617622 - 01/11/24 01:22 PM (17 days, 23 minutes ago)

Continuing from my last post:

To explain further...because Religion is basically the pursuit of knowledge of God and Science is the pursuit of knowledge about reality, Einstein's use of Spinoza's God has pragmatic value. If Nature is God and we come to know God via religion then science becomes the ultimate religion. Moreover though this contrasts with some fanatic formulations of atheism it is generally still compatible with atheism and it also makes science more approachable for religious people.

Einstein's approach has potential as a pragmatic approach to the problem of reconciling religious and scientific belief without offending either.

One can use this position to argue that my presentation of Einstein's God as a type of theism is a potentially disingenuous proposition in this context.

I'd hope to find someone who saw this flaw in my presentation.
I bait a number of hooks like this, not looking for fish, but for a friend, who can see the bait and my position for what they are. I've mentioned my foundation in Dialetheism. I'd hoped to find someone who observed that the word can even be broken down into Diale-theism, which can be used quite ironically in this topic, maybe even in a rather punny manner.

What can I say?
I'm a bit bored at the moment!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
    #28617628 - 01/11/24 01:29 PM (17 days, 16 minutes ago)

Science has in its heritage
the periodic table, chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry,
evolution, biological science and medicine,
geology oceanography etc.

These are designed to be extended by further insights and to that extent science is open:
the knowledge is not dogmatic but interdependent and related and is generally shared and reaches us physically in medicine, and in cultural uptake of innovation, like photography, film, transportation, communications, and electronics.
Quite a few of these are backed by profit motives.

Organized religion requires more participation by followers than does science, yet it shares the profit angle but would probably like to declare that it is the actual underwriter of all science, including weapons development. It is true that it has been a driving force in literacy, ad least up til the institution of departments of education in government.

it is difficult to deal with these institutions, but each honest discovery is very interesting.

Science has no role in weddings and funerals or baptism.


--------------------
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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #28617638 - 01/11/24 01:34 PM (17 days, 11 minutes ago)

Scientia potentia est.

Knowledge of useful things can be put to use.
Or to butcher it: Knowledge is power.

Even Mendel was a monk.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28617642 - 01/11/24 01:36 PM (17 days, 10 minutes ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I do not think it is dubious to revere nature as holy and worth observing.




Well that's the rub. To perhaps contradict myself a bit, revering nature means revering all aspects of nature, being the totality of everything, or revering nature means revering aspects we like or find agreeable or wonderful while disliking aspects that seem awful?

It's not that I don't like nature but when something is elevated the rest is lowered. I think in a fundamental sense (outside the scope of utility) everything is nature.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz]
    #28617654 - 01/11/24 01:49 PM (16 days, 23 hours ago)

we can only revere what we become aware of


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