|
Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28615421 - 01/09/24 03:42 PM (18 days, 22 hours ago) |
|
|
God is the jumbled spelling of "dog". The psychology of the wolf or domesticated dog says a great deal about the nature of the universe / God. To me, God is synonymous with the universe, and it just so happens that there are dogs and cats and gorillas and all kinds of forms that have some inkling of intelligence. I do dog sitting for a golden retriever, I walk her three times a week. It can be frustrating and tedious at times, dealing with dogs, cats, people, and I know lots of people are embittered by God.
“Going to bed and waking in the morning (I woke, most often, too early) were bad times—so many hundreds of evenings and mornings. Sometimes I wondered who or what sends us this senseless repetition of days and nights and seasons and years; is it not like hearing a stupid boy whistle the same tune over and over, till you wonder how he can bear it himself?” ― C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Peopleschoice]
#28616049 - 01/10/24 07:11 AM (18 days, 6 hours ago) |
|
|
Redefining God as various strawmen works well, but it's nothing more than a thought exercise in fallacious circumlocution. Philosophy major, I assume?
It becomes difficult to use that pseudo-logic when one addresses the concepts of God that others use.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Peopleschoice]
#28616072 - 01/10/24 07:29 AM (18 days, 6 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Einstein said:I no longer believed in the known God of the Bible, but rather in the mysterious God expressed in nature.
So here is a definition of God, as the causal force behind nature and the laws of physics. The evidence for this God is the existence of said nature and said laws.
Evidence exists and has been presented, we have a claimant, here Albert Einstein, and he has defined God. In the context of this information your argument is evinced to be spurious and arguably; trite.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28616079 - 01/10/24 07:44 AM (18 days, 6 hours ago) |
|
|
Very bare bones definition of God. What is the use of it without adding more to it?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28616438 - 01/10/24 01:58 PM (17 days, 23 hours ago) |
|
|
The use of any term is found in context.
That is how words work.
Why add more when it is not needed?
Bible God is easily refuted, that much is true, but blanket dismissals of God, a term with numerous definitions, are naive at best.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28616677 - 01/10/24 05:46 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago) |
|
|
It is not naive to be frustrated in this domain.
I prefer not to use any words that have too many disputed definitions. Is there a particular version of god that you think we should all be much more cognizant of?
After making some effort to clarify your use of the term first, if you still find people stubborn or naive you can call that out, but please do not disregard the frustration that the confusing conflation of meanings has garnered for many of us.
I have some very devout good friends (who got religious after university and marriage), but I don't spend much time with them - my lack of tradition is OK for an alien guest dropping by but even a meal gets a bit messy or confusing when the interstellar diplomacy is over.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28616685 - 01/10/24 05:52 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago) |
|
|
Very well.
I have become weary of the use of logical fallacies by philosophers to attack theism categorically, nevertheless I will do my best to follow your advice.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28616710 - 01/10/24 06:13 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago) |
|
|
not sure I gave any advice, but if you have a precise view that is driving you to think others are naive then sharing that precise view could be enlightening. frustration can be contagious.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28616726 - 01/10/24 06:29 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: not sure I gave any advice, but if you have a precise view that is driving you to think others are naive then sharing that precise view could be enlightening. frustration can be contagious.
I apologize if I presented the idea that people are naive for categorical dismissals of theism, I had the intention of portraying such dismissals as naive.
Quote:
Nillion said: blanket dismissals of God... are naive at best.
Allow me to define them as naive in the sense that they are generally made without consideration, as absolutist statements tend to be. Certainly that is my opinion, naive though it may be.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28616757 - 01/10/24 06:57 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago) |
|
|
you are sharing a more contrite view of why you suggest impatience with vague interpretations of god are naive, what I think you should share is your interpretation of what god is and why a person not seeing your point must be naive. so - now I am giving advice: - please forget the naivete of others and focus on explaining your interpretation of god.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28616780 - 01/10/24 07:19 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago) |
|
|
I was commenting about blanket dismissals and not offering any of my own definitions of God.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: what I think you should share is your interpretation of what god is and why a person not seeing your point must be naive.
It is not my view that someone not seeing my point is naive.
It is my view that absolutist statements dismissing theism are naive, particularly those that employ fallacious circumlocution oriented around the presentation of theism as a type of generic straw man. They are perspectives that fail to consider that some concepts of theism are evidence based, such as the example I present in regards to Einstein.
My own opinion about what God is or isn't is unrelated to the argument. These comments are presenting my opinion about blanket dismissals of theism, not my opinion about God, which I believe I already partially addressed in this thread.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28616805 - 01/10/24 07:45 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago) |
|
|
I know someone who has a minimalist God belief and I've never disregarded him for it. He's a very rational person but has a sense of the profound which he attributes to God. I agree with Einstein but not in a literal sense, just that the concept of God is drawn to the unknown, to the mysterious nature of our perceptions.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 24 minutes, 50 seconds
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28617059 - 01/11/24 12:56 AM (17 days, 12 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Nillion said: I don't believe Atheism to be rational. I view it as type of theistic claim lacking evidence, just like many forms of theism. Like the relationship between matter and anti-matter or between molecular enantiomers, they are two aspects of the same thing.
I believe that some specific theistic claims are more rational than atheism, but they aren't biblical claims nor do they involve the supernatural.
But that is just my opinion.
I always thought that atheism wasn’t a claim to knowledge, it’s just not believing in any gods.
You can be a gnostic atheist, which means you don’t believe in any gods and you make the claim that no gods exist (which I think is irrational), but you can also be an agnostic atheist, which means you don’t believe in any gods and you make no claim about the existence or non existence of any gods.
This is assuming you take the meaning of the word god as something like “a literal all knowing, all powerful being which created us and watches over us”.
If the definition of god is something like “the creation force of the universe” then I’d take something like a Hindu stance in asserting that everything, including us, is a part of god (god being the universe as a whole or something like that).
To me, being agnostic or gnostic is the real key as to whether a belief is irrational or not, as well as what you define god to be.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz]
#28617061 - 01/11/24 01:03 AM (17 days, 12 hours ago) |
|
|
If I may.
I’ll perhaps live for one more day, if that’s so, if even that, then fan-fucking-tastic, something genuinely appreciated so much it breaks my heart just being.
However, If not? if I pass in my sleep, or wake to sudden cardiac arrest, or on my way to a doctors appointment tomorrow or something - then…*poof*- gone - imerged anew little by little over time via natural disassembly, feeding the needy without being greedy for my own life?
If that isn’t a cool setup or arrangement of sorts to anyone else but myself, then I’m sorry, you’re missing out on something not beyond ourselves later after death, but here right very now.
But, whenever it is I do die, in a blink nearly as fast as sooner than the brain can think - a bang begone ending with a flood like flash or a pure emptiness at last; I can’t help but grin a little bit, mulling it over as an always already sort of inevitable, or, as an ever ‘working, being worked, & working it out’ type of natural recycling by means of one’s very being wearing out of life’s transformative energy- while alive - now, while standing at the edge of time where everything’s fully naked — side by side with itself, sometimes with nothing to hold but one’s own hands 🙏 while powering down to nothing as the most primal of all experiences of all life or already lived life can ever have, ie, death ~ itself.
Perhaps it is not likely much of anything, perhaps there’s an uneasiness to it until we’re not here, but for the instance in the moment in which the last of our lingering energy tingles throughout like an immaculately, miraculously, marvelous, and naturally induced psychedelic dreaming shared in by all beings while alive, is thereby, like a candlelight’s flame, put out to to the grandest of pastures, to rest.
Nothing ever wasted, not even a single drop? It’s true, it can’t be fought, regardless of which story comforts us the most - A timeless rest within timelessness itself - actively enabling other sentient beings that they might live the trip of life for but a little longer, too, is more than likely a positive & certain fact - if not, kewl, but, until then it’s best not to fool ourselves out completely, as it tends to get messy fast if we do.
that we all will come to know for a split second one day if lucky enough to perish under fortunate conditions enabling it so, that’s a greater wish to live by, then getting into heaven, or staying out of hell - imho.
That’s akin to supreme perfection (in my eyes, blind or not.) 
Anywho.
However : as to the debate waging over and over, about whether X is Y or if it is not - regardless of however it seems - my whole life’s to be lived in a moment’s worth of thought and over with before knowing if it came out to be like mentally posited, imputed, or not. Time after time, everything changes - and that alone is the one thing which won’t change itself, god or no god, energy’s primordiality alone is enough to be wowed by forever and ever.
I think I’ll stick with that until it’s well done making myself up before ever passing it up.
~ Que sera, sera.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Bardy]
#28617238 - 01/11/24 06:07 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago) |
|
|
I view atheism as a claim that God does not exist, A- meaning without and Theism essentially meaning Divine Cause.
I addressed this in more detail earlier.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28617241 - 01/11/24 06:12 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago) |
|
|
The Blind Ass, I don't believe in an afterlife either and I too think we should make the most of the life we have and not count on others happening.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz]
#28617247 - 01/11/24 06:20 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: I know someone who has a minimalist God belief and I've never disregarded him for it. He's a very rational person but has a sense of the profound which he attributes to God. I agree with Einstein but not in a literal sense, just that the concept of God is drawn to the unknown, to the mysterious nature of our perceptions.
this makes sense and this does not lead anyone to calling another person's approach naive especially because it honors mystery which is the essence of functional naievity
Nillon, consider this please.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28617268 - 01/11/24 06:41 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago) |
|
|
Redgreenvines, the title of this thread is an attack on theism.
I addressed what I think about such attacks, that they are naive.
That is my opinion just as the opinion of the person who created this thread was that theism is irrational.
Quote:
Einstein said: "[T]he fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."
I think this speaks to the issue, that many atheists are frequently petulant and want to dismiss theism as an absurdity but dislike it when others are of the opinion that atheism is itself demonstrably absurd as well. When this is pointed out the common reply is to claim that atheism is actually agnosticism.
Yeah, I think it's naive and absurd.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28617381 - 01/11/24 08:40 AM (17 days, 5 hours ago) |
|
|
OK, I will assume that you are not comfortable explaining what you believe except that you are comfortable decrying what other people think.
The truth is that all of us are naive about a lot.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28617402 - 01/11/24 09:09 AM (17 days, 4 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: OK, I will assume that you are not comfortable explaining what you believe except that you are comfortable decrying what other people think.
The truth is that all of us are naive about a lot.
Indeed all humans are ignorant to some degree or another.
I already presented my belief that blanket dismissals of God are naive.
I've elaborated to some degree upon aspects of my beliefs, but I have spent considerable time pondering these things and my opinion and perspective upon this matter is not such that can be easily portrayed in comments online.
I've mentioned elsewhere that some of my beliefs about God are very similar to those of Einstein. I've also addressed that the term God is diverse and covers numerous phenomena and things.
Take the ancient world and belief systems where royalty was seen as God upon the Earth. In this historical contexts such Gods exist and can be addressed, they are but people.
In another sense God is a category of natural being that has achieved advanced technological state. This also relates to topics I can address at length and may do so at some point but am reluctant, though perhaps not for the reasons you imagine. Again I refer you to the Rhinoceros Sutra.
In another sense God is the causative force identified by Einstein, this is absolutely evidence based and comes form one of the most rational and logical people who has ever lived and who knew far more about the nature of reality than most people ever will.
In another sense God is a position of authority in terms of hierarchy, hence the word God is often considered interchangeable with Lord. In this sense relates to the sense of Kings as avatars of God in terms of authority, but it is extended to the concept of a spirit world or other similar aspects. In this God is the King of spirits, this understanding is quite useful when studying specific occult things and traditions.
Then there are specific Gods, like the Feathered serpent, YHVH and Indra etc. We can discuss these individually and their relation to history, mythology and more, but once someone has closed their minds to the concept of God and becomes a fanatical atheist they aren't really rewarding or educational to engage, no naysayer is. Statements dismissing God categorically are literally naive in their scope.
Atheists often seem to be just another type of closed minded and close hearted zealot or religious fanatic.
|
|