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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28604015 - 12/30/23 11:28 PM (28 days, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: what's wrong with self reporting?
I'm not sure that it is wrong so much as limiting. People are biased when it comes to self evaluation. It makes self reported evaluations notoriously unreliable.
In psychological assessments this is made up for by using hundreds or even thousands of questions as well as one on one interviews. When it comes to internet personality tests the results are far less reliable.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28604086 - 12/31/23 03:23 AM (28 days, 10 hours ago) |
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I like precision in meaning if I need to puzzle through something effectively (like associative memory), but also I consider brainstorming an enjoyable form of play in which the deformation and sound play of words implying alternate meanings is part of the terrain, and I even enjoy the crossover of domains in this type of play (then I get back to strict meanings while puzzling through what just happened).
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 4 minutes, 19 seconds
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28604396 - 12/31/23 09:48 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said:
Quote:
Freedom said: what's wrong with self reporting?
I'm not sure that it is wrong so much as limiting. People are biased when it comes to self evaluation. It makes self reported evaluations notoriously unreliable.
In psychological assessments this is made up for by using hundreds or even thousands of questions as well as one on one interviews. When it comes to internet personality tests the results are far less reliable.
yeah, i think those tests are garbage, and wouldn't use them, that's not what I was attempting to point to
I think self reporting, depending on how we are using that word is part of the human condition. For example I may want to be a heavy weight boxer, but my self report is that I don't have the physicality or the mentality to succeed.
On the other hand I think I'd make a pretty good programmer.
In the same ways I can look at the cognitive functions.
However, for me the real gold wasn't as much looking at the functions to explore myself, but to see and find value in others.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I like precision in meaning if I need to puzzle through something effectively (like associative memory), but also I consider brainstorming an enjoyable form of play in which the deformation and sound play of words implying alternate meanings is part of the terrain, and I even enjoy the crossover of domains in this type of play (then I get back to strict meanings while puzzling through what just happened).
Given a question or problem my brain creates an answer intuitively, and then I have to check it with logic to see if its accurate. I didn't take this too seriously until I was solving college physics problems this way and had to study what was going on.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom] 1
#28604403 - 12/31/23 09:53 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago) |
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The bdsm test is where it's really at, that's meant to change over time, or atleast develop.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 4 minutes, 19 seconds
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sudly] 1
#28604420 - 12/31/23 10:03 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago) |
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I seem to be getting more vanillia as I age. well, maybe more strawberry
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28604450 - 12/31/23 10:32 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Redgreedvines, I think your experience with and understanding of Buddhist concepts lends itself to your understanding the limitations, utility and significance of language. That is certainly my impression at this time at least.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28604500 - 12/31/23 11:11 AM (28 days, 2 hours ago) |
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@nillon, you are prismatic-ally correct those facets of my mind are arranged to convey the same thing - in that way I am like a block of lucite.
@sudly, I am getting sexual oddities as I search for bdsm, what meaning is it you meant?
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom] 1
#28604981 - 12/31/23 05:54 PM (27 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I seem to be getting more vanillia as I age. well, maybe more strawberry
Vanilla, Strawberry, and Cinnamon ~ all the way, my friend.
More importantly, Atheism is concerned with theism, theism is concerned with an ultimate or absolute, but, with respect to some sort of sentient being and or entity.
@ Nillion, for whatever reasons Einstein had, I've always pretty much felt the representation (E=Mc2) indicates, as resulting naturally from pondering the nature of the cosmos and finding no truly auto-cephalic existent phenomenon which is independent of anything beyond an incredibly powerful fluxing of energy.
I don't know an honest man who's found something which can be conveyed with hard evidence to others in a syllogistically sound fashion, or otherwise, as indicating something, anything, anywhere, or anytime like that. Not IME.
Imho&e, naturally, via nature, and with some learning to some degree granting some depth of knowledge in some fields of scientific study, including mathematics, and, in conjunction with a keenly discerning mind, at some point; all of which, seemingly naturally discovers (however) energy itself has no first beginning or final end; thus, how experiencing penetrative insight via an inherently nondual primal awareness shining for true, thanks to and upon the the fleeting activity of momentarily distinguishable yet form(s) plus our specific configuration wrt genetically pools assembling what Structure:Function we know as of the human being; lending credence to energy itself as the stinkingly sweet culprit or mysterious thanksgiving day stuffing which seemingly comprises or is by which matter itself can be comprisable or compounded at all.
Following with said energy as is without necessarily requiring any originator for itself's "origination", might well be like an unconditional condition of reality, just, rather than a creature having evolved to the point of obtaining some form required for the knowledge, skills, and means or ability to create a cosmos (meaning, it would be doing so from another or from within this very one itself, somehow - which is absurd - unless completely anthropomorphized and de-ego'd).
Instead, how come we don't just razor all that b.s. away and see as simply as possible how easily it could be "always already" - ie - eternity. Seems perfectly natural to me. What about you all?
That's one notion I tend to mind much about
Primordial in some meaning, imho, denoting and or conotting the fact of phenomenon vs no phenomenon whatsoever at all. Our being for the moment like a flickering speck of bubbly dream emerging via the happenstancialities of causliaty leading to it. Luckily enough; awareness of the time being, in the here & now, itself - is of exactly what?
At the very least, a momentary glimpse of some of the totality of energy's potential, whilst actualized for a smidge in just the right juncture of spacetime for a bubble with sentiently-being-potenlizability to form; wherein which we reside within or by which we reside, and, as which we reside of an eternity - of what? Idk - but, that it is of the flux of interactivity of primordial energy itself that conscious awareness of suchness is possible at all is made possible by.
In that way, energy might be considered somewhat 'godly'. I think we can do better than that, let alone deification of which rests upon the incomplete understanding of a creature such as ourselves. 
ps. rushed the crap of this post due to fam coming over while still initially composing it. They've insisted on watching 'Oppenheimer" together. 
" I'll be back! "
- Terminator
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28605006 - 12/31/23 06:09 PM (27 days, 19 hours ago) |
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I apologize for my ignorance but auto-cephalic is not a term I am familiar with and I am not getting decent search results that explain it to me.
Would you mind defining it for me?
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28605049 - 12/31/23 06:53 PM (27 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Einstein said: I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
This and several other quotes of his pertaining to the topic of religion can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein
He even said that from the perspective of Catholics (paraphrasing) he is an atheist. He also wrote that he was agnostic and deeply religious. His words speak well for themselves, I cannot claim to be able to do them justice. I do consider him to have been extremely wise.
I have extremely similar views about religion as he did but I was not influenced by Einstein in this regard, rather I discovered a kindred spirit in him after forming my own views. I had a few of what I think of as profound religious experiences, all private, that led me to the position I maintain today.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28605332 - 01/01/24 12:25 AM (27 days, 13 hours ago) |
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To be honest, I may have made it up to help myself convey something portraying as something somehow *magically* standalone - disconnected from the webbing of causality, as in, not subjected to the laws of nature. If so my bad. Pardon me!
I suppose I was attempting to portray something seemingly impossible (at least, in my opinion, which, itself, is backed by the grace & guarantee of ever-soaking in as close to a near-infinitely deep well of ignorance as possible).
How can there be any truly independently existing thing apart for everything else? Not affected whatsoever by anything, despite the apparent ongoings of whatever occurs via a 'Cosmos' or Universe?
Again, it was to suggest something not interdependently arising from the natural interactions whereby each and all things are co-mutually intertwined upon past events and those things influence the present, as they occur in the present as well, but you know, time's funky. Anywho, if we speak of 'things' as phenomenon, and, said phenomenon are observed to continually (thus far), i'd posit - with constancy - are at the very least always party to another which, again, falls within the category of 'things' which comprise whatever is happening throughout the spacetime continuum. Again, if that were the case, then I do not and can not understand how such a thing manages a feat like that. 
Idk, try imagining an object of sorts which somehow could be outside of an infinitely boundless place to begin with. If an all encompassing area is all encompassing, then how can there be something escaping being encompassed by it?
I don't see how such a thing would be possible, but, I know of some who do so nonchalantly. For instance, some christians, many catholics I grew up with and others of other religions sometimes would proclaim their version of god as such a thing; meanwhile, others remark something to the effect of: 'even if god were not as such, it wouldn't be impossible for their god, since its the nist gaudy gody god of all gods, etc.
I bring it up, probobly because over the holidays I was surrounded by and stewing in lots of dogma, and, I don't know how to really begin to approach people like so when it comes to conversing with them on 'their beliefs', especially when it involves something which can magically roll alone without any push or natural forces having acted upon it at some point...not to mention it takes petitions via thoughts in the form of prayer, too. Idk, I was up to my eyeballs in it for a while, just doing a reality check here. Being with family is great in some ways, but when they get high on the highest horse of them all, it hit as delusive and unhealthy, imhoe.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#28605419 - 01/01/24 05:11 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago) |
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some versions of prayer involve insight of associative mind such as Metta meditation: i.e. the last phrase being "May all beings be well and happy." It begins with calm. then "may I be well and happy" establishing an attitude of a safe, healthy, caring self. then "may my role model be well and happy" establishing positive metta attitude to one's teacher. then "may my brother be well and happy" establishing metta towards a family member then "may that guy on the bus be well and happy" extending metta to unfamiliar people then "may my opponent be well and happy" broadening the net to include people who have been nasty then "may all beings be well and happy"
last night I only got to "may my family be well and happy" (an extreme short cut not allowing for all the value in the above association power) and my phone buzzed and my daughter who is a mother was sending love to all the family so I emoji'd and fell asleep.
If I stop to think, metta meditation is a prayer for peace, and it works by a contrivance of associating metta with all classes of people and the gut feelings we have for them. This "consolidation of memory" type of meditation does not involve any god other than mind itself, but it has all the features of prayer, spiritual feeling, and connection with something greater than this moment and this self.
The way it works is by introducing the association of some calm and good will into the basic attitudes that we reflexively project in response to perceptions, thoughts, and the presence of others in daily life.
finally I got the right day, Happy New Years!
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28605447 - 01/01/24 06:50 AM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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"The kingdom of God is within you" - Jesus
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz] 1
#28605451 - 01/01/24 06:59 AM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Ye ol' 'desolate palace'; whereupon entering & exiting, one is filled with an invorgartive & spectacularly immaculate splendor?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#28605455 - 01/01/24 07:03 AM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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and a hella buncha pain! realistically
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28605466 - 01/01/24 07:19 AM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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@redgreenvines you are very good at making people do better thanks
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#28605531 - 01/01/24 08:38 AM (27 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: @redgreenvines you are very good at making people do better thanks
I think it would be better if you did not complement me daily, once a year is more than enough - thanks
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28605565 - 01/01/24 08:58 AM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Ye ol' 'desolate palace'; whereupon entering & exiting, one is filled with an invorgartive & spectacularly immaculate splendor?
Silence is pretty good at times. Sometimes I want the noise. Knowledge of cycles prevents hypocrisy. Grab hold. Let go. Breath in. Breath out. Love, hate. Laugh, cry. I don't know about immaculate, but it's spectacular at times. Grab hold. Let go.
The first thing we do is breath in. The last thing we do is breathe out. In between there's a whole lot of breathing in and breathing out.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Peopleschoice
Novice Shroom grower

Registered: 12/23/23
Posts: 23
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon]
#28606566 - 01/02/24 12:27 AM (26 days, 13 hours ago) |
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He offered enough evidence as needed. If you read and understand his position, he is simply explaining why he DOESN'T need to provide evidence that god doesn't exist because it is not the correct way of thinking about it and it is on the believer to prove that he DOES exist. So he is saying since there isn't any real evidence for god, he has no reason to believe in him. Just like the tooth fairy.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 4 minutes, 19 seconds
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28606793 - 01/02/24 08:41 AM (26 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said:
Imho&e, naturally, via nature, and with some learning to some degree granting some depth of knowledge in some fields of scientific study, including mathematics, and, in conjunction with a keenly discerning mind, at some point; all of which, seemingly naturally discovers (however) energy itself has no first beginning or final end; thus, how experiencing penetrative insight via an inherently nondual primal awareness shining for true, thanks to and upon the the fleeting activity of momentarily distinguishable yet form(s) plus our specific configuration wrt genetically pools assembling what Structure:Function we know as of the human being; lending credence to energy itself as the stinkingly sweet culprit or mysterious thanksgiving day stuffing which seemingly comprises or is by which matter itself can be comprisable or compounded at all.
Following with said energy as is without necessarily requiring any originator for itself's "origination", might well be like an unconditional condition of reality, just, rather than a creature having evolved to the point of obtaining some form required for the knowledge, skills, and means or ability to create a cosmos (meaning, it would be doing so from another or from within this very one itself, somehow - which is absurd - unless completely anthropomorphized and de-ego'd).
Instead, how come we don't just razor all that b.s. away and see as simply as possible how easily it could be "always already" - ie - eternity. Seems perfectly natural to me. What about you all?
That's one notion I tend to mind much about
Primordial in some meaning, imho, denoting and or conotting the fact of phenomenon vs no phenomenon whatsoever at all. Our being for the moment like a flickering speck of bubbly dream emerging via the happenstancialities of causliaty leading to it. Luckily enough; awareness of the time being, in the here & now, itself - is of exactly what?
At the very least, a momentary glimpse of some of the totality of energy's potential, whilst actualized for a smidge in just the right juncture of spacetime for a bubble with sentiently-being-potenlizability to form; wherein which we reside within or by which we reside, and, as which we reside of an eternity - of what? Idk - but, that it is of the flux of interactivity of primordial energy itself that conscious awareness of suchness is possible at all is made possible by.
In that way, energy might be considered somewhat 'godly'. I think we can do better than that, let alone deification of which rests upon the incomplete understanding of a creature such as ourselves. 
I like the word energy in some ways. Energy flows and I imagine as continuous, not split apart into seperate things. The flaw is that it we might think we know what it is.
As child I thought god represented something beyond our imagination, the ultimate mystery . Both space and time can point to how this is beyond at least my conception. With space, is it infite, or does it end? With time, is it infinite or did it begin? All four answers point to something beyond my comprehension, to a miracle. Anthropizing that never made sense.
Except for particular times. I remember many of them were when I was overwhelmed with despair and would fall to the ground in humility with the recognition that the universe was bigger than me, that my life was in 'its' hands, and overwhelmed with a longing I would personify the universe to ask it for help just in that moment.
Now days I sometimes find myself overwhelmed with gratitude just to be able to live, and I notice I want to thank the universe, so imagine a being to thank.
There's another miracle. To see, hear, taste, touch, smell and imagine. If we personify that process, we make ourselves a little god, the creator of our world.
Yet I don't know, has anyone found a thing that creates? A source? Source or sourceless, it seems impossible, or beyond my comprehension
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