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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603342 - 12/30/23 01:31 PM (29 days, 15 minutes ago) |
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As for the "I didn't say you could eat that" example.
To me the change in context by the change in emphasis is not an example of variable word definitions. The words all mean the same thing in each variation.
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28603345 - 12/30/23 01:32 PM (29 days, 13 minutes ago) |
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also did you watch the video? I think it demonstrates fluidity of definition very well.
edit: oh yeah you're right
here's a better one, its funny too
Edited by Freedom (12/30/23 01:35 PM)
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28603353 - 12/30/23 01:42 PM (29 days, 3 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: so how do you determine the True definition of a word when the dictionary has multiple meanings for most words?
That's my point. I don't determine what words mean. I literally use dictionary definitions and etymology, pun intended.
Why do you not redefine the number 3 as meaning a different number? How do you determine what 3 is?
Math is also language, after all. The same things apply.
Coherence relies upon agreed upon standards and the dictionary definitions are, by definition, definitive for me, not the consensus at Reddit. That sus, feel? My son had a few friends who are rappers over last night hanging out with him and I'm no stranger to slang. However I generally avoid using slang or connotative definitions in online conversations. It is all about context.
This is my approach and opinion, there is nothing wrong with having a different position.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28603371 - 12/30/23 02:07 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Atheist = not theistic. One can add more but it's not reasonable to say someone has a belief simply because they indicate the absence of a belief.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (12/30/23 02:16 PM)
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28603378 - 12/30/23 02:16 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago) |
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aQuote:
Nillion said:
Quote:
Freedom said: so how do you determine the True definition of a word when the dictionary has multiple meanings for most words?
That's my point. I don't determine what words mean. I literally use dictionary definitions and etymology, pun intended.
Why do you not redefine the number 3 as meaning a different number? How do you determine what 3 is?
Math is also language, after all. The same things apply.
Coherence relies upon agreed upon standards and the dictionary definitions are, by definition, definitive for me, not the consensus at Reddit. That sus, feel? My son had a few friends who are rappers over last night hanging out with him and I'm no stranger to slang. However I generally avoid using slang or connotative definitions in online conversations. It is all about context.
This is my approach and opinion, there is nothing wrong with having a different position.
redefinition is just part of how language works, 3 already has multiple definitions. For example at 3 i think i will be out of my house doing something else.
Merriam Webster acknowledges the use of atheist in the OP.
Quote:
1 a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods 2 archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : UNGODLINESS,
I'm not sure what you disagree with me about then if you you see that words have multiple meanings and (I assume you see this) the meaning depends on context.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28603409 - 12/30/23 02:44 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Some of the words I use have multiple meanings such as "sensation" and "perception" but I need to use those words to achieve a continuity of meaning. I asked Bing to contrast sensation with perception and it gave me this:
Quote:
- Here are some of the main differences between them:
- Sensation is the process of detecting physical stimuli from the environment through our sensory receptors, such as the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin. Perception is the process of interpreting and organizing the sensory information in our brain, giving it meaning and context.
- Sensation is based on the physical properties of the stimuli, such as intensity, frequency, wavelength, and texture. Perception is based on the psychological factors that influence how we perceive the stimuli, such as attention, memory, emotion, and expectation.
- Sensation is more objective and universal, as it is largely determined by the laws of physics and biology. Perception is more subjective and individual, as it is influenced by our personal experiences, beliefs, and cultures.
- Sensation and perception are not separate stages, but rather continuous and interactive processes. Sensory information is constantly modified and filtered by our perception, and our perception is constantly updated and refined by our sensation
I happen to agree entirely with these points
while if I ask Google what is "sensation" I get this shit:
Quote:
Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more sen·sa·tion /senˈsāSHən/
noun: sensation; plural noun: sensations
1. a physical feeling or perception resulting from something that happens to or comes into contact with the body. "a burning sensation in the middle of the chest" the capacity to have physical sensations. "they had lost sensation in one or both forearms" an inexplicable awareness or impression. "she had the eerie sensation that she was being watched" Similar: feeling sense awareness consciousness perception impression tickle tingle prickle
2. a widespread reaction of interest and excitement. "his arrest for poisoning caused a sensation"
The dictionary gets the whole thing messed up but Bing is using AI which polls usage, and based upon that comes up with the meanings that I am also accustomed to using.
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603412 - 12/30/23 02:48 PM (28 days, 22 hours ago) |
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I explained the definition of atheist I use and how it is based on the definitions of the word parts and that it is historically accurate. As mentioned I use etymology as part of my understanding of the meaning of words.
I also did this in relation to the word agnostic.
Redefining words over time is one of the reasons people today tend to translate archaic texts very poorly. I spend a lot of time reading old material. My method is practical for the need I have in regards to language. Your approach to language simple would not work for me.
It is just fine for people on Reddit, I am sure, but for other pursuits it can end up being problematic.
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28603444 - 12/30/23 03:19 PM (28 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Sensation and Perception in my way of considering: Sensation is from sensus, which is from sentio or to feel. This likewise relates to the word sentient, as meaning able to sense. We can consider Sensation as a combination, thus, of sense, and -ation, the act and or state of. Its parts define it as the state of awareness of feeling.
Perception is rooted in per- capio. Capio is related to capture, captive, captivate etc. Per- is essentially through or by. Perception can be rendered as through captivation, as it were.
In this each individual mental awareness of individual feeling or sensation is a perception and is an act of perception. Both words can be substituted for one another in causal use, but they each have a specific distinction in terms of precision of meaning.
When we examine the Bing meanings, the awareness of sensation is captured, so to speak, or held, by the brains operation, hence perception as a function of the brain makes a great deal of sense. Likewise the definition of sensation offered by Bing, of it being the state of or process of sensing, also makes a great deal of sense. The Bing material is more in keeping with the meanings of the words as defined by their parts and history than the Oxford definition is This is one of the reasons my first go to , for understanding a word, is always the origin of the word and its parts.
That's actually how English appears to be designed to be used, at least to me. It is why we use prefixes and suffixes from other languages to form many of our words. Each word is like an equation, each part is like a term in the equation. This approach allows a precision that is extremely useful to me. It is also true I have not met anyone else who has this opinion.
I invented the word Framplex to explain this, some time ago. English is a framplex language. This word has the parts frame and complex as contributing parts. To frame a meaning by making a complex of parts into a new whole is to framplex. A word formed this way is also a framplex. Meaning the word framplex is a framplex and the act of forming the word as I did was to framplex. This is how our language works. To use language this way requires that it's parts be standardized. Words are constructs.
It's rather mathematical, or akin to coding, another type of language. It's okay to disagree with and to dislike my position on this, no worries, but my position is functional coherent and pragmatic in terms of my needs. I have a background in botany and biology and use a lot of Greek and Latin because of this and that definitely (pun intended) affects my perception of the use of language.
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Rahz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28603446 - 12/30/23 03:20 PM (28 days, 22 hours ago) |
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From etymonline.com Quote:
1570s, "godless person, one who denies the existence of a supreme, intelligent being to whom moral obligation is due," from French athéiste (16c.), from Greek atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" (see a- (3)) + theos "a god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts).
The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell. [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943]
I deny the existence of equestrian unicorns. I don't know for sure that they don't exist but I don't tend to say maybe because someone drew a picture of one.
In a practical sense isn't this the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Rahz] 1
#28603474 - 12/30/23 03:36 PM (28 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell. [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943
I quite agree with that quote.
As for the unicorn, I also agree.
I'm thinking about sharing my perspective on the origin of the word theist in archaic contexts and how it relates, but basically not all formulations or concepts of God are equally preposterous and unfounded. My mind typically goes to the observations of Einstein here, who believed in God because of what he perceived as evidence of God, but this is not a personal or biblical god, no beard, golden gates with a bouncer with a guest list book etc.
Many concepts of God appear to originate with or from humans arrogantly trying to claim that all existence exists for them, that the universe was made for people with some specific end or another in mind. In terms of that concept of God, even I can be considered an atheist by my own definition. I claim that observable evidence indicates that it is simply not the case that the universe and reality are a means to a human end.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 2
#28603481 - 12/30/23 03:39 PM (28 days, 22 hours ago) |
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letting the Framplex drive your language, you will definitely get a divide by zero error sooner or later.
when that happens to me I blow my stack and restart the whole system restricting words to discreet usage.
Framplexity is fraught with frights!
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603493 - 12/30/23 03:56 PM (28 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Lol. I love you man.
I mean, you aren't wrong.
Kinda makes me want to address the concept of zero, but that's pretty far off topic.
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28603754 - 12/30/23 07:34 PM (28 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: I explained the definition of atheist I use and how it is based on the definitions of the word parts and that it is historically accurate. As mentioned I use etymology as part of my understanding of the meaning of words.
I also did this in relation to the word agnostic.
Redefining words over time is one of the reasons people today tend to translate archaic texts very poorly. I spend a lot of time reading old material. My method is practical for the need I have in regards to language. Your approach to language simple would not work for me.
It is just fine for people on Reddit, I am sure, but for other pursuits it can end up being problematic.
I think it might relate to a different way of thinking. I notice I encounter and see encounterts between other people where one person has very strict definitions of words and the other is using the words in a looser way that depends more on context
I think this may reflect different thinking processses.
I don't have trouble having multiple meanings and new meanings for words. For example i could call you, me and rgv 'the three' and as long as it was in the right context, wouldn't have much trouble knowing what that means.
In personality theory having strict definitions of words could be the cognitive function Introverted Thinking, and being facile with many definitions could be the cognitive function Extroverted Intuition
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603786 - 12/30/23 07:58 PM (28 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Good insight. There may be some truth to that.
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28603808 - 12/30/23 08:13 PM (28 days, 17 hours ago) |
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I asked chatGTP about it, it came up with this (I think the myers brigs tests don't work, but the descriptions of the cognitive functions point to different ways of cognizing and i've found it really useful in understanding others to study those functions):
Quote:
Introverted Thinking (Ti):
Ti is associated with internal logical analysis and the development of precise, systematic frameworks. Individuals with dominant Ti tend to focus on creating internal structures of understanding and categorization. Ti users often prefer clear definitions and precise language to convey ideas. They may have a tendency to use rigid definitions and a more precise language to communicate their thoughts.
Extroverted Intuition (Ne):
Ne is associated with the exploration of possibilities and connections between ideas. Individuals with dominant Ne are often interested in brainstorming, generating new ideas, and exploring alternative perspectives. Ne users may be more inclined towards loose definitions, as they are more interested in exploring the potential connections and interpretations of concepts. They might use language that is more open-ended and adaptable to various interpretations.
I think because I naturally see things from many perspectives, I also see words from many angles
I would guess (just a fun guess I don't believe this) that you would fit the INTP personality type. https://www.personalityhacker.com/intp-personality-type/
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603874 - 12/30/23 09:08 PM (28 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I'm INTJ according to most Myers-Briggs tests that I have taken. However I can't speak to their accuracy.
The introverted part of your observation is somewhat accurate, given that.
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion] 1
#28603884 - 12/30/23 09:16 PM (28 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I think those tests are very poor, they ask about values a lot and preferences which can be affected by a lot of things outside the cognitive functions.
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sudly
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom] 1
#28603889 - 12/30/23 09:19 PM (28 days, 16 hours ago) |
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Personally, I've found my results have changed over the years as my views, attitudes, approaches and experiences have. I don't think the Myers Briggs accounts for fluidity in development, but as a general gist it's interesting.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Nillion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28603961 - 12/30/23 10:14 PM (28 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Freedom and sudly, I agree with those comments.
Sometimes I see Myers-Briggs as psychology's version of astrology.
Only now we get 16 signs instead of 12 and the results are based on subjective self reporting instead of being based on the coincidental alignments of planets!
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Freedom
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Nillion]
#28603971 - 12/30/23 10:29 PM (28 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Personally, I've found my results have changed over the years as my views, attitudes, approaches and experiences have. I don't think the Myers Briggs accounts for fluidity in development, but as a general gist it's interesting.
its normal for people to develop their cognitive functions over time
Quote:
Nillion said: Freedom and sudly, I agree with those comments.
Sometimes I see Myers-Briggs as psychology's version of astrology.
Only now we get 16 signs instead of 12 and the results are based on subjective self reporting instead of being based on the coincidental alignments of planets![/quote
what's wrong with self reporting?
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