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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20911434 - 12/01/14 08:45 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Look at militant atheists and militant theists.

The first group wants you to question your belief system. They want to be included in (American) society without fearing for their jobs and lives.

The second group wants to kill you because its exclusive dogma contains unverifiable propositions that condemn your very existence in this world and in imaginary worlds.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20911539 - 12/01/14 09:21 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: At least we need to level the playing field. You'll get a lot less militancy from us atheists/agnostics if it feels safe to be what we are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz]
    #20912588 - 12/01/14 02:07 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
what is it about religion that is so bad anyways?

monasticism? the history? is it the history? lot of things evil have been done in history from all fronts. godless people once and still do, slaughter innocently; at least innocent in their towers.

still? why is religion so specifically important to label as an enemy?



as I understand it is patriarchal religion which is a toxic form of thinking and when the believers in it move 'away' from it without understanding what it was (mindcontrol) they moved away from, it continues to affect their thinking and actions unconsciously. I will give a very important example

In  patriarchal religious and philosophical thinking, 'darkness' is associated with evil, and/or inferiority in contrast to 'light' which is thought to be good, pure, superior. OK, so then they move away from all that 'superstitious religious age' and embrace the 'age of reason and science'. BUT then what they do is --using 'science-- unconsciously see people who are 'dark' skinned as being....? Yip, inferior, and often demonic!! And they will use this thinking to justify all forms of exploitation including genocide. This is all revealed here in this must-see video, Though it doesn't go into the patriarchal religious and philosophical roots of this, it is surely implied for those who dig this:

Scientific Racism The Eugenics of Social Darwinism







You lost me at patriarchal, and lost me further when you say religions make whites look at blacks as demonic. I lol'd.


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #20912595 - 12/01/14 02:08 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: At least we need to level the playing field. You'll get a lot less militancy from us atheists/agnostics if it feels safe to be what we are.




If you live in a town where atheists are violently persecuted, which after hitchhiking the entire country I don't believe exists, but if where you live even comes close to that. You have a whole host of reasons not to stay there besides your safety... I don't even like states where liquor stores close early on sunday...


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #20912651 - 12/01/14 02:25 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: At least we need to level the playing field. You'll get a lot less militancy from us atheists/agnostics if it feels safe to be what we are.




If you live in a town where atheists are violently persecuted, which after hitchhiking the entire country I don't believe exists, but if where you live even comes close to that. You have a whole host of reasons not to stay there besides your safety... I don't even like states where liquor stores close early on sunday...





Try running for public office and then claim to be atheist.  If you think our opinion is mainstream and not judged then you will be in for a surprise even in your own town usually.  I live in a small buddhist wannabe town so it's not a problem but outside this area you might find being open about being gay or an atheist limiting or possibly dangerous.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #20912657 - 12/01/14 02:27 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Some day I will run for office as a Thelemite, not to win, just to spread knowledge of Thelema. I do however see your point, everyone, including muslims like Barrack Hussein Obama, must claim to be christian to run for office...


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #20912731 - 12/01/14 02:51 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Gaytheist?


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20913352 - 12/01/14 05:12 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Look at militant atheists and militant theists.

The first group wants you to question your belief system. They want to be included in (American) society without fearing for their jobs and lives.

The second group wants to kill you because its exclusive dogma contains unverifiable propositions that condemn your very existence in this world and in imaginary worlds.



yeah, maybe in America the problem is exacting in that way. :shrug: but really, the militant athiests "trying to get a foot hold" in the country, are still preaching really retarded shit, in order to get people to think about their religion as "damaging and dangerous", but they do that in a way that actually a: doesn't show anything significant (ie oh they believe in something i don't, so they must be crazy ect oh the inquisition! other evil examples! lets forget about athiest Stalin or Mao, right?) and b: makes them look as dogmatic as the rest that they are against, and then it's all for what? America? what about, who gives a fuck about that? it's not a Christian country, NOR an Athiest country. it's a country where your free to believe what you want, which makes "militants for dogma" really sharply dumb for even trying. :shrug: cause it's pointless

what, are they supposed to be trying to stop "policy" from getting through on "the christian side of things"? well, as long as it's sensible, it'll be considered, but it won't necessarily last. what rules are to be aware of, from the christians, that are so very dangerous and wrong and bad? can you name one?

or is that not it? is there aren't reason why religion is "out" but atheism is "in", other than the fact that you're not not a fan of dogma?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #20913521 - 12/01/14 05:43 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Fans of reason cannot be religious.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20913537 - 12/01/14 05:45 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

no, but they can admire history, at least. lots to learn there.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20915477 - 12/02/14 02:00 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Not only America, but America especially because that’s what most of you here can relate to best. It’s the same anywhere with the same sides struggling. Although atheists are overall worse off there than in other major industrial countries.

Your point a: their point isn’t to prove anything significant, but to break up a hegemony that excludes them, personal freedom and free thought.
Your point b: what they look like isn’t relevant in this argument. You asked my why religion is bad, not whether atheists seem irritating and embarrass themselves.

If you think America’s not a Christian country then you’re flat out wrong. Maybe you don’t see this because you’re an apologist, or you haven’t traveled much, or haven’t read much, or don’t know about America, or haven’t encountered any substantial historical or factual information about the subject.

If it were true that you could believe what you want in America, why are atheists so widely distrusted there? Why can’t they openly run for office? Why do they get disowned from their families? Divorced? Fired? Kicked out of school? Bullied? Beaten up? Killed?

But whether you can believe what you want is not on topic anyhow, because, once again, you asked me what’s so bad about religion, not whether you are free to believe in religion.


Edited by Lakefingers (12/02/14 02:10 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20915490 - 12/02/14 02:10 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

it's not religion doing anything though. you can attribute it to religion, but then you have to apply the same rationale to Atheism.

all your doing is attributing prejudice to religion, but religion doesn't dictate anything other then the belief of a governing body of things under a deity.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20915502 - 12/02/14 02:25 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Atheism has nothing near the track record of religion. If by "it" you mean oppression, violence and so on. There is no institution on Earth that can motivate people to the extent of religion and, as said above, based on imaginary worlds. As I implied above, it's bad enough that we have oppression, violence and so on for worldly reasons, but the unworldly reasons are absolutely unjustifiable and they hold an exorbitant sway over people.

When I entered this thread I asked you to come out and take a stance, but you want to have your cake and eat it... Your post stats indicate this is a subforum you prefer over religious subforums, so it seems reasonable to assume that you prefer rational argument over faith-based rhetoric and religious dogma, yet still you want to treat them as equals because you find militant atheists obnoxious. Woe is postmodernism!

The Age of Enlightenment, which was complicit in securing modern science, modern secularism, separation of church and state, extensively criticized religion. Enlightenment thinkers didn’t do that arbitrarily because they liked criticizing any sitting target, but because they understood that religion was the main component standing in the way of free intellectual inquiry, human rights and so on. This was instrumentally complicit in improving life quality for many nations. Today there's some decadent liberal guilt hanging over the intellect, preventing people from saying and seeing where they really stand.

Once again, I'm going to remind you that I did not state that the world wouldn't be improved without the militant atheists, but without religion. And once again, that says nothing of my or your ideal world. Please reread the posts if this still causes confusion.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20980718 - 12/15/14 04:59 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

My stance on religion, is that all Abrahamic religions support the slaughter of goyas-gentiles-infidels, and therefore are hate speech, and should be illegal, end.


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Invisiblementat
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Registered: 04/24/15
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #22637305 - 12/10/15 06:36 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

One could (maybe) overcome questions about atheism and religion by shifting the discussion in mind onto another level.

humans have language, it is a structure that enables us to inherit knowledge onto others. it is grammar and vocabulary, it has words and it has a hierarchy within itself. some words mean much than some others. water is h2o but what if god was one of us?

now think of god, gods, anything that allegedly transcends the human ability and mortality. it is basically a thought that had founded the basis of literature. the oldest written literature, the sumerian epic of gilgamesh is about a man's quest of immortality through his adventures, and his companion trying to convince him otherwise.

divinity is a human thought that finds its reflection in the word of god. god, allah, bog, deity or any other word that signifies such divine entities  is ultimately a word. 'spreading the word of god' thus itself is an act of reproducing and reincarnating the very idea itself in the language over and over again, generations after generations. it is such an embedded idea in our human minds for a reason and the idea remains rejuvenated and therefore immortal. the meaning however changes and multitudes kill and perish in the process of such change.

the inheritance of the word and the meaning over generations is what makes god(s) immortal. the phonetics of the word of god in many different languages are the most resilient to change. if you trace the sound back in thousands of years ago, it still is more or less the same word for it as it is today. it is always among us. on this point, imho it is meaningless to argue if the/a god is not real or not when someone comes to break bread with me or break my skull in the name of that alleged god. when the hell is created upon the earth for 'non-believers', the divine intervention is created for them by the believers.

there are many communities and societies on this earth and although some might have a mutual word to worship for, the belief and the meaning of their god differs according to their geography, customs and traditions. fraternal incest is universally a religious taboo because it weakens the genes. yet in mythology, you can't find a god that does not reflect the needs, or the image or the surroundings of the society. ancient egyptians did not have a polar bear god, yet the russians substitute bear with lion in their national symbols.

people often need symbols to give a meaning to their lives. be it the ankh or cross, heterodox gestures (knock on wood for instance) or crescent, the star of david, the swastika, or even flags and colours. the french flag (tricolor) symbolizes 'liberty, equality, fraternity' was a very basic, striking and new symbol created after the revolution and killed more than the crusades did under the cross. the hammer and scythe gave a good whipping to swastika as well.

nationalism is therefore religion on a different level, constitutions are flexible holy books in the end. but maybe not too flexible as we need them to be. the US went through a bloody civil war to amend the constitutional article on slavery, maybe just like German principalities fought their war against catholics after Luther re-translated the bible and found protestant faith.
moma is the new sistine chapel but art is still art.

religion is a function of society and the collective essence of the people look at those symbols just as one look into a mirror.  I have tackled with the problem of being a believer and a non-believer for a very long time, and after meditating for long years, the question for me is whether there is a god or not. god exists because we are mortal. god exists because we all grew up with a greater force than ours (parents in family, headmaster in the orphanage etc.) that punishes wrongdoing, either upon us or avenging us. god is a word that meets the human need of justice and immortality, and people kill in the name of it. it is indeed very real.

I think being an atheist truly, fully necessitates ceasing all human contact and all the social dependencies at best, which is almost impossible (even for henry david thoreau). denouncing the torah, the bible, the quran, the vedas doesn't make you an atheist imo, for there are always some codes and symbols we believe in to make the world more understandable and livable.

at the end of the day you can't escape from death or taxes and nobody escapes a spanish inquisition.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: mentat]
    #22637347 - 12/10/15 07:01 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Check out this guy.  Some amazing stuff.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22639784 - 12/10/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Check out this guy.  Some amazing stuff.






just tell me his point---he drones on forever saying nothing......
go bored after 3 min of bullshit fast froward more bullshit
fast froward more bullshit
fast froward more bullshit

you must be very patient


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OfflineSpace Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: laughingdog]
    #23004902 - 03/14/16 03:23 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

This individual I think illustrates the problems involved in neo-atheism. He says that Richard Dawkins "makes him ashamed to be an atheist", because his arguments are so simple that "he would fail a intro to religious philosophy" class. Basically, there is a rich intellectual history in theology, and neo-atheism does itself a disservice by neglecting to engage in argument against this tradition that is worthy of the questions involved.

Questions like "who caused the first cause" are questions that Dawkins treats as though religious scholars never bothered to think of them ... which is idiotic, some of the deepest philosophers in history wrestled long and hard with those questions, and put out some pretty compelling and powerful answers.

Not necessarily right answers - but answers to be reckoned with, which the neo-atheist movement does not do. Neo-atheism is all too often anti-intellectual, for all it's claims to intellectual clarity. Nietzsche, David Hume - these guys put forth some stunning answers to why one should not believe in religion (cause and effect as metaphysical for example - wrap your head around that sometime!). Richard Dawkins and people of his ilk don't really match up. That is the problem with neo-atheism. It's usually not good at intellectual engagement, as many atheists in the past were.



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Space Monkey]
    #23004913 - 03/14/16 03:37 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Space Monkey said:
This individual I think illustrates the problems involved in neo-atheism. He says that Richard Dawkins "makes him ashamed to be an atheist", because his arguments are so simple that "he would fail a intro to religious philosophy" class. Basically, there is a rich intellectual history in theology, and neo-atheism does itself a disservice by neglecting to engage in argument against this tradition that is worthy of the questions involved.

Questions like "who caused the first cause" are questions that Dawkins treats as though religious scholars never bothered to think of them ... which is idiotic, some of the deepest philosophers in history wrestled long and hard with those questions, and put out some pretty compelling and powerful answers.

Not necessarily right answers - but answers to be reckoned with, which the neo-atheist movement does not do. Neo-atheism is all too often anti-intellectual, for all it's claims to intellectual clarity. Nietzsche, David Hume - these guys put forth some stunning answers to why one should not believe in religion (cause and effect as metaphysical for example - wrap your head around that sometime!). Richard Dawkins and people of his ilk don't really match up. That is the problem with neo-atheism. It's usually not good at intellectual engagement, as many atheists in the past were.






I can't stand Dawkins. He's like, the worst of the worst IMHO.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23005086 - 03/14/16 06:21 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Space Monkey said:
This individual I think illustrates the problems involved in neo-atheism. He says that Richard Dawkins "makes him ashamed to be an atheist", because his arguments are so simple that "he would fail a intro to religious philosophy" class. Basically, there is a rich intellectual history in theology, and neo-atheism does itself a disservice by neglecting to engage in argument against this tradition that is worthy of the questions involved.

Questions like "who caused the first cause" are questions that Dawkins treats as though religious scholars never bothered to think of them ... which is idiotic, some of the deepest philosophers in history wrestled long and hard with those questions, and put out some pretty compelling and powerful answers.

Not necessarily right answers - but answers to be reckoned with, which the neo-atheist movement does not do. Neo-atheism is all too often anti-intellectual, for all it's claims to intellectual clarity. Nietzsche, David Hume - these guys put forth some stunning answers to why one should not believe in religion (cause and effect as metaphysical for example - wrap your head around that sometime!). Richard Dawkins and people of his ilk don't really match up. That is the problem with neo-atheism. It's usually not good at intellectual engagement, as many atheists in the past were.






I can't stand Dawkins. He's like, the worst of the worst IMHO.




In comparing 18th and 19th century philosophers to 20th and 21st century philosophers, what exactly is the point?

Yea... What is better than a cherry picked argument, right?

Don't hate the hater... Hate the game.


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