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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Since I have far to much information pertaining to this topic i figured i break down just a couple informative post. Now, i was a bit diddly before in saying what i said earlier as 100% truth. What i meant to say (and i am sorry for misleading) was that it is shown to have some evidence to support that our minds (or better known in the scientific community as the "observer") can alter the very fundamental reality around us.
This link just shows you the original experiment with the classic "Double-slit" experiment.
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/schroedinger/two-slit2.html
The above link is just to give you an idea of what the experiment is about. Just in case you never heard of it or have been unaware of it. I mean no disrespect just making sure we are on the same page.
This link is to show you the exact name of the quantum theory i am speaking of. Now i need to remind you that everything in the quantum world and everything in science is still a "theory". Even though some "theories" are almost within a certainty of 100% FACT. We cannot, as scientific human beings, say that something is 100% FACT. we must take into account of future findings that could shatter the theory. For instance, about a year scientific claimed that we found the very last particle that could possibly be found. WE believe we found the "God particle". Within 3 months they found another particle. I bring this up for simple reasons. Our understanding of our reality will always grow, change, and alter. We are no where near finding any truths about our reality. To believe that only after a hundred years of amazing scientific experimentation that we have found everything that needs to be found. This of course would be foolish and highly un-scientific. Any scientist will tell you that these things are just our CURRENT UNDERSTANDING of how something works. Not a single scientist on this planet will tell you that something is 100% fact.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2597
This of course is a Wikipedia link ( not a big fan of it) but this shows you a list of links and other things that you yourself can follow up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind
http://www.fflch.usp.br/df/opessoa/InfoCog-3.pdf here is a peer reviewed study that shows that quantum outcomes were altered due to the simple fact of an observer being present.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/
This is a link to stanfords site. IT goes into great detail of everything. Mind you it starts off as a philosophical debate but goes into great detail of the scientific findings done through experimentation
Here is another peer-reviewed article that shows more evidence of consciousness altering the quantum world. http://www.klab.caltech.edu/news/koch-hepp-06.pdf
Here is another peer reviewed article that shows the brain interacting with the quantum world and changing the very basis of how it works. http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasmi/Papers/litt%20et%20al.2006.quantum%20brain.cogsci.pdf
Here is another link to a university that shows in great detail what i speak of. http://consciousness.arizona.edu/
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
Edited by Psychedelicjournal (12/14/13 03:10 PM)
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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1. the double slit experiment tells us nothing about how people can fly. It's interesting to see how particles work but to jump to your conclusions is faulty.
2. The Quantum mind is a hypothesis. No concrete evidence.
3. The observer having an actual effect on particles has been debunked. It is not so much the actual act of observing has an effect on the particles, it's more the particles are so sensitive that the instruments we use to observe them effect them.
In short, while there may be some truth in these theories, absolutely none of them say that humans have the ability to defy the laws of physics.
BTW this is New Age 101. You mentioned the quantum mind, the double split theory, and the observer.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/14/13 04:53 PM)
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19275697 - 12/14/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said: 1. the double slit experiment tells us nothing about how people can fly. It's interesting to see how particles work but to jump to your conclusions is faulty.
2. The Quantum mind is a hypothesis. No concrete evidence.
3. The observer having an actual effect on particles has been debunked. It is not so much the actual act of observing has an effect on the particles, it's more the particles are so sensitive that the instruments we use to observe them effect them.
In short, while there may be some truth in these theories, absolutely none of them say that humans have the ability to defy the laws of physics.
BTW this is New Age 101. You mentioned the quantum mind, the double split theory, and the observer.
I gave a poor example. However, how do we know that one day our understanding of the universe grows and we learn to manipulate gravity and the very field of our existence. Even scientist believe that one day we will be able to do things that we cannot even comprehend today.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Quote:
GilbertC06 said: 1. the double slit experiment tells us nothing about how people can fly. It's interesting to see how particles work but to jump to your conclusions is faulty.
2. The Quantum mind is a hypothesis. No concrete evidence.
3. The observer having an actual effect on particles has been debunked. It is not so much the actual act of observing has an effect on the particles, it's more the particles are so sensitive that the instruments we use to observe them effect them.
In short, while there may be some truth in these theories, absolutely none of them say that humans have the ability to defy the laws of physics.
BTW this is New Age 101. You mentioned the quantum mind, the double split theory, and the observer.
I gave a poor example. However, how do we know that one day our understanding of the universe grows and we learn to manipulate gravity and the very field of our existence. Even scientist believe that one day we will be able to do things that we cannot even comprehend today.
Exactly. You said it yourself. Quote:
manipulate gravity
You acknowledge that we are bound to physics and yes maybe one day we can fully manipulate gravity, but that is not the same as your original claim that people can just ignore the laws of physics and that wishful thinking is all you need.
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Skydawg
Stranger

Registered: 03/23/13
Posts: 72
Loc: CT
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19280898 - 12/15/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah if your a total left brained individual, it makes total rational sense... chew on that.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Skydawg]
#19280941 - 12/15/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Skydawg]
#19281996 - 12/16/13 12:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Skydawg said: Yeah if your a total left brained individual, it makes total rational sense... chew on that.
Another failure of thinking something is fixed or has inherent properties.
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andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19282240 - 12/16/13 02:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Another failure of thinking something is fixed or has inherent properties.
Can you elaborate on this please?
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19285154 - 12/16/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Another failure of thinking something is fixed or has inherent properties.
Can you elaborate on this please?
He said: Quote:
Yeah if your a total left brained individual, it makes total rational sense... chew on that.
Which assumes that left brained people (right handed) are more linear in their thinking while right brained people (left handed) are more abstract and creative.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/16/13 05:36 PM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Good to see the old thread back in action...
Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said: I gave a poor example. However, how do we know that one day our understanding of the universe grows and we learn to manipulate gravity and the very field of our existence. Even scientist believe that one day we will be able to do things that we cannot even comprehend today.
Yes and right now, we have things that people in the past wouldn't comprehend (iphones for example). Do we call those things god?
Sounds like another argument from ignorance - "there are things we don't understand therefore god".
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (12/16/13 09:12 PM)
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andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19286289 - 12/16/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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cheers man,
I had misunderstood the context and thought we were talking about intrinsic values...
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19286816 - 12/17/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: cheers man,
I had misunderstood the context and thought we were talking about intrinsic values...
We are when someone is under the belief that left or right handed people have intrinsic values beyond being left or right handed.
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Synapse Trap
Eating God's Holy Cannabis Plant


Registered: 02/19/12
Posts: 1,698
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#20672835 - 10/07/14 07:57 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: Good to see the old thread back in action...
I think it is interesting in that atheism pretends to start with a theist beginning an argument for God.
If someone is going to reject theist's claims, they have to make them first. But that is not part of my theistic paradigm.
If God exists, then He did so before any theists. So the question existed before the supposed argument that I have the burden of.
Why insert me at all? I believe every individual asks themselves at some point, if there is something out there.. At this point, you are not rejecting my argument, but pawning it off on me (I have not met your burden) ..but who met it for me? was it a human? strange strawman..
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Synapse Trap]
#20672869 - 10/07/14 08:04 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh Jesus no not again
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1,682
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Synapse Trap]
#20675985 - 10/08/14 03:54 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Synapse Trap said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: Good to see the old thread back in action...
I think it is interesting in that atheism pretends to start with a theist beginning an argument for God.
If someone is going to reject theist's claims, they have to make them first. But that is not part of my theistic paradigm.
If God exists, then He did so before any theists. So the question existed before the supposed argument that I have the burden of.
Why insert me at all? I believe every individual asks themselves at some point, if there is something out there.. At this point, you are not rejecting my argument, but pawning it off on me (I have not met your burden) ..but who met it for me? was it a human? strange strawman..
It goes deeper.
As Nietzsche pointed out, philosophy is language. What lies beyond language is unkown.
Before the existance of god comes the question of it. Does god exist? This is a sentence, not an abstract element.
And so the key is understanding that the problem is not wether god exists or not, but wether you can answer that question. Before you know wether god exists or not, you must be aware of the question "does god exists" in itself.
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Synapse Trap
Eating God's Holy Cannabis Plant


Registered: 02/19/12
Posts: 1,698
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Kukaracha]
#20676680 - 10/08/14 06:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kukaracha said:
Quote:
Synapse Trap said:
Quote:
clam_dude said: Good to see the old thread back in action...
I think it is interesting in that atheism pretends to start with a theist beginning an argument for God.
If someone is going to reject theist's claims, they have to make them first. But that is not part of my theistic paradigm.
If God exists, then He did so before any theists. So the question existed before the supposed argument that I have the burden of.
Why insert me at all? I believe every individual asks themselves at some point, if there is something out there.. At this point, you are not rejecting my argument, but pawning it off on me (I have not met your burden) ..but who met it for me? was it a human? strange strawman..
It goes deeper.
As Nietzsche pointed out, philosophy is language. What lies beyond language is unkown.
Before the existance of god comes the question of it. Does god exist? This is a sentence, not an abstract element.
And so the key is understanding that the problem is not wether god exists or not, but wether you can answer that question. Before you know wether god exists or not, you must be aware of the question "does god exists" in itself.
If you say "Before the existence of god comes the question of it." That is presuming naturalism a-priori, and that is fine when dealing w/ the scientific method (SM) but not when dealing w/ the topic of a deity
Now if you are simply restating the famous quote about the mark of true intelligence is being able to entertain an idea w/o accepting it first.. then yes, I agree
but one of the finer points im trying to make is that each man should approach the question neutral.. why start with any presumptions/assumptions? we NEED to w/science in order to make sense of anything, noting harmonies, consistencies, order, predictability.. With the subject of gods unicorns aliens fairies sasquatch nessie etc, I never appeal to science to accept or reject belief, i do so using faith and reason.
Atheists do the exact same yet rather than "I contend we are both atheists [...] one less god than you" I contend we both have faith-based beliefs. (not merely lack of belief)
I dont reject your argument regarding unicorns.. hell, you may own one. I'm not sitting around, however, in limbo..just waiting for someone to present an argument for/or against unicorn existence. I use faith to say I don't believe they exist anywhere w/in w/out the multi-verse (as it were) And I'm ok with that. I wonder why atheists have such an aversion to the word faith that they prefer to play word games
I dont merely lack belief in bigfoot (sasquatch) i believe them to be a myth. Do I have evidence? No. Do I care? No, that's the liberty that faith gives you
I'm not advocating the use of faith, we all already do daily, I urge atheists to embrace their faith based beliefs. Its so weird to see atheists deny relying on faith to determine no god or gods exist, because they readily admit that deities are not scientific endeavor, so if not science then what else is left? Probablies? When atheists deny they use faith it reminds of how girls dont fart
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1,682
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Synapse Trap]
#20679439 - 10/09/14 11:56 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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For a neutral approach to the question at hand, you need a chronological context.
Let's play a game. Do I have a key in my pocket?
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Synapse Trap
Eating God's Holy Cannabis Plant


Registered: 02/19/12
Posts: 1,698
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Kukaracha]
#20680665 - 10/09/14 04:32 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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That thought, whether or not you have a key in your pocket would never occur to me naturally, but the thought of a grand architect may cross each persons mind at some point in their life.. even if it is at age 89
Also, we already know what a key is. With deities, we start w/ no information.
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1,682
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Synapse Trap]
#20682820 - 10/10/14 04:17 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are you sure you can visualize what I'm talking about ? I just said "key"; you're making assumptions of what seems most likely in the light of your own habits.
Besides, you haven't answered my question.
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Synapse Trap
Eating God's Holy Cannabis Plant


Registered: 02/19/12
Posts: 1,698
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Kukaracha]
#20686817 - 10/11/14 12:30 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dont know if you do, nor do i care (unless it is mine). It is not my question, it is yours. I don't have that question, nor will I ever (apart from this mental-exercise)
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