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Psychedelicjournal
John Human


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19269478 - 12/13/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Logic is completed subjective man. Even formal logic is faulty.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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hmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
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Haha...I appreciate the reply, Gilbert. When I re-read my post after making it, I had to laugh - it wasn't nearly so coherent as I had first thought. 
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Under your model murder is either inherently wrong or right and there is no give to that. That is exactly why things like that go to court. People rationalize and use logic to decide whether something like self defense was justified or not.
That's not true. Each situation is unique, and needs to be experienced in order to determine its right or wrongness. Sometimes murder is justified. Can you give an example of one murder that's justified and another that isn't, and why they differ? I suspect that we agree more than is apparent.
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It also does not account for the "felt sense" of psychopaths or anyone who has the urge to molest babies for example. For them the sense includes hurting people.
Hmm...that's a strong claim. I don't know with certainty that psychopaths or other highly deviant people have such an altered sense of morality; it seems much more likely to me that they suspend the application of morality from their decision-making process. You may be thinking (understandably so) that all felt senses that motivate action are included when I talk about a felt sense of morality, but I was actually referring to a fairly specific felt sense that is unique to morality.
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I mean the whole reason why shrooms and other drugs are illegal is because people believe that it is inherently wrong without seeing the evidence and logically determining whether it is rational to outlaw them or not.
Hmmmm...the causes that led to the prohibition of most psychedelic drugs and that have since maintained that prohibition are complex. I agree that they are founded in ignorance - in particular, in the failure of many people to understand what these drugs actually do.
How would a person rationally determine that psychedelic drugs should not be outlawed? Can you lay out a sample thought process that conforms to your model of morality?
Edited by hmmn (12/13/13 09:28 AM)
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: hmmn]
#19269967 - 12/13/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
That's not true. Each situation is unique, and needs to be experienced in order to determine its right or wrongness. Sometimes murder is justified. Can you give an example of one murder that's justified and another that isn't, and why they differ? I suspect that we agree more than is apparent.
Right or wrong is still a subjective word. There is no inherent right or wrong. What one person views as right. Another may view as wrong. So where do we draw the line? Where do we as a society say that something is right or wrong? Even then, when society decides what is right or wrong. Other societies have decided something different. For instance, In our "Western" society children are not allowed to work. We view it as morally wrong and enforce that morality. Yet, if you were to go to a "Third world country" children are seen as being able to work as well. So morality and society are both subjective to the confines are set society.
{quote]Hmm...that's a strong claim. I don't know with certainty that psychopaths or other highly deviant people have such an altered sense of morality; it seems much more likely to me that they suspend the application of morality from their decision-making process. You may be thinking (understandably so) that all felt senses that motivate action are included when I talk about a felt sense of morality, but I was actually referring to a fairly specific felt sense that is unique to morality.
Once again, Morality is literally a subjective thought. It is a subjective word that is defined by ones own personal belief system.
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Hmmmm...the causes that led to the prohibition of most psychedelic drugs and that have since maintained that prohibition are complex. I agree that they are founded in ignorance - in particular, in the failure of many people to understand what these drugs actually do.
How would a person rationally determine that psychedelic drugs should not be outlawed? Can you lay out a sample thought process that conforms to your model of morality?
Psychedelic drugs were made illegal because, they don't want us to explore our consciousness. They only want us to explore the sections that they allow us to explore. There is not a single logical solution on why psychedelics are illegal. Some would claim that they don't want people losing their minds or jumping off of bridges. This of course, as we all know, is complete and utter B.S.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
How would a person rationally determine that psychedelic drugs should not be outlawed? Can you lay out a sample thought process that conforms to your model of morality?
Can psychedelic drugs or any other drugs for that matter cause harm to the user?
Yes it is possible but the choice should be on the user to make that decision for him or herself. It is more harmful for an outside force to make that decision for them.
Do psychedelic drugs cause direct harm to people who do not use them?
No. Yes it is possible that a user can harm someone else under the influence of certain drugs, but it is the user's fault. Not the drug.
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said: Logic is completed subjective man. Even formal logic is faulty.
Agreed. My actions will always be based on my own instincts and experiences. I will always be biased towards people I know and people in general.
I'm not going to be saving ants anytime soon but most people take the time to save mammals.
It is subjective but that is besides the point.
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19273687 - 12/14/13 07:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Psychedelicjournal said: Logic is completed subjective man. Even formal logic is faulty.
Agreed. My actions will always be based on my own instincts and experiences. I will always be biased towards people I know and people in general.
I'm not going to be saving ants anytime soon but most people take the time to save mammals.
It is subjective but that is besides the point.
No that is not besides the point. There is no one set logic that would work "logically". To say that the only logical answer is atheism is a subjective thought. I am referring to any form as logic as well. NOTHING IS LOGICAL. Even formal logic has tons of faults and can be logical sound but false.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Psychedelicjournal said: Logic is completed subjective man. Even formal logic is faulty.
Agreed. My actions will always be based on my own instincts and experiences. I will always be biased towards people I know and people in general.
I'm not going to be saving ants anytime soon but most people take the time to save mammals.
It is subjective but that is besides the point.
No that is not besides the point. There is no one set logic that would work "logically". To say that the only logical answer is atheism is a subjective thought. I am referring to any form as logic as well. NOTHING IS LOGICAL. Even formal logic has tons of faults and can be logical sound but false.
Actually you are pushing it too far. Logic may be subjective but only because it applies to our world. It wouldn't be a good idea to jump off a sky scraper would it?
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19274390 - 12/14/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
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GilbertC06 said:
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Psychedelicjournal said: Logic is completed subjective man. Even formal logic is faulty.
Agreed. My actions will always be based on my own instincts and experiences. I will always be biased towards people I know and people in general.
I'm not going to be saving ants anytime soon but most people take the time to save mammals.
It is subjective but that is besides the point.
No that is not besides the point. There is no one set logic that would work "logically". To say that the only logical answer is atheism is a subjective thought. I am referring to any form as logic as well. NOTHING IS LOGICAL. Even formal logic has tons of faults and can be logical sound but false.
Actually you are pushing it too far. Logic may be subjective but only because it applies to our world. It wouldn't be a good idea to jump off a sky scraper would it?
Well depends on how you look at it. Quantum physics tells us that our very thoughts can project into the quantum world and change any outcome. If like is about perception and there is no way to prove that anyone else actually exist. How do we know that if a person believes with 1000% of his being that he can fly. How do we know that he does not fly in his perception and his physical manifestation hits the ground because, we ourselves don't believe in flight.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Report back when you've conducted your experiments with building jumping.
Lets be logical about how we use logic. Logic is not about speculation and what ifs. It's about results. That's my opinion using logic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#19274501 - 12/14/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Report back when you've conducted your experiments with building jumping.
Lets be logical about how we use logic. Logic is not about speculation and what ifs. It's about results. That's my opinion using logic.
Well we are doing nothing but speculating with logic. There is 0 logic to refute what the topic of discussion is. I also have information about quantum science that can point the very essence of what i am saying.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
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Icelander said: Report back when you've conducted your experiments with building jumping.
Lets be logical about how we use logic. Logic is not about speculation and what ifs. It's about results. That's my opinion using logic.
Well we are doing nothing but speculating with logic. There is 0 logic to refute what the topic of discussion is. I also have information about quantum science that can point the very essence of what i am saying.
The very reason why we can talk with each other through cables underground shows how we are bound to our reality. The internet is a complex structure of systems and somehow everyone is able to use it. You don't need faith to see it work. Billions of different perceptions and it still works. and we still have no real proof of people flying off of buildings.
And speaking of perceptions, quantum science is where people who have actually no experience in it whatsoever, like to point out things and interpret it the way they want to.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/14/13 12:26 PM)
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19274580 - 12/14/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Psychedelicjournal said:
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Icelander said: Report back when you've conducted your experiments with building jumping.
Lets be logical about how we use logic. Logic is not about speculation and what ifs. It's about results. That's my opinion using logic.
Well we are doing nothing but speculating with logic. There is 0 logic to refute what the topic of discussion is. I also have information about quantum science that can point the very essence of what i am saying.
The very reason why we can talk with each other through cables underground shows how we are bound to our reality. The internet is a complex structure of systems and somehow everyone is able to use it. You don't need faith to see it work. Billions of different perceptions and it still works. and we still have no real proof of people flying off of buildings.
And speaking of perceptions, quantum science is where people who have actually no experience in it whatsoever, like to point out things and interpret it the way they want to.
I am working right now. When i am done with work i will compile information for you that will show my point. I also have a firm understanding of quantum physics and quantum mechanics. I am not a quantum scientist or anything like that. But i do have a very large understanding about it.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19274586 - 12/14/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quantum physics tells us that our very thoughts can project into the quantum world and change any outcome.
I highly doubt that is exactly what quantum physics is saying.
Yes, a person's thoughts can have an effect on the world but there are a ton of factors outside of that, many of them stronger.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Report back when you've conducted your experiments with building jumping.
Lets be logical about how we use logic. Logic is not about speculation and what ifs. It's about results. That's my opinion using logic.
Well we are doing nothing but speculating with logic. There is 0 logic to refute what the topic of discussion is. I also have information about quantum science that can point the very essence of what i am saying.
Who gives a fuck about your quantum fantasies. If you jump off a building you're going splat.
I'll take practical results from the world the rest of us live in. You can abide in la la land if that suits your purposes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19274846 - 12/14/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Quantum physics tells us that our very thoughts can project into the quantum world and change any outcome.
I highly doubt that is exactly what quantum physics is saying.
Yes, a person's thoughts can have an effect on the world but there are a ton of factors outside of that, many of them stronger.
Perhaps take some time to really look into quantum mechanics.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Quantum physics tells us that our very thoughts can project into the quantum world and change any outcome.
I highly doubt that is exactly what quantum physics is saying.
Yes, a person's thoughts can have an effect on the world but there are a ton of factors outside of that, many of them stronger.
Perhaps take some time to really look into quantum mechanics.
Maybe, but I'd rather take that advice from an actual quantum physicist than someone who reads (probably unscholarly not peer reviewed) articles and books on it. So far all I've heard from new age quantum physics believers are hypotheticals. things that may or may not be true on a quantum level but have little to no effect on our world and our perceptions. They take theories from quantum physics that say something in regards to subatomic particles and somehow interpret it in a way to relate to their own personal lives. Show me someone who actually projects their thoughts on their world and comes up with billions of dollars without hard work, connections, and other real world factors. Show me one person who flies who disregards the laws of physics and has no mechanism to combat it.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/14/13 02:13 PM)
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19274936 - 12/14/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
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Quantum physics tells us that our very thoughts can project into the quantum world and change any outcome.
I highly doubt that is exactly what quantum physics is saying.
Yes, a person's thoughts can have an effect on the world but there are a ton of factors outside of that, many of them stronger.
Perhaps take some time to really look into quantum mechanics.
Maybe, but I'd rather take that advice from an actual quantum physicist than someone who reads (probably unscholarly not peer reviewed) articles and books on it. So far all I've heard from new age quantum physics believers are hypotheticals. things that may or may not be true on a quantum level but have little to no effect on our world and our perceptions. They take theories from quantum physics that say something in regards to subatomic particles and somehow interpret it in a way to relate to their own personal lives. Show me someone who actually projects their thoughts on their world and comes up with billions of dollars without hard work, connections, and other real world factors. Show me one person who flies who disregards the laws of physics and has no mechanism to combat it.
Just because, no one has done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done. I also only read peer-reviewed and scholarly articles. Please, don't group me up with these new age hippies who say stupid stuff without evidence. I am not on my personal computer right not but i will show the information that is needed.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Just because, no one has done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done. I also only read peer-reviewed and scholarly articles. Please, don't group me up with these new age hippies who say stupid stuff without evidence. I am not on my personal computer right not but i will show the information that is needed.
You kind of are if you are implying that a person (human beings biologically what they are right now) can fly at will (under our current circumstances on earth) without the help of technology and the like. Because I highly doubt that Quantum physics directly says that a human being can fly at will and not under unique instances and without the help of technology. Unless that exact statement is agreed upon among academic quantum physicists then you are just promoting opinion and self interpretations of things you have read.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/14/13 02:25 PM)
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Psychedelicjournal
John Human



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19275074 - 12/14/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Quote:
Psychedelicjournal said:
Just because, no one has done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done. I also only read peer-reviewed and scholarly articles. Please, don't group me up with these new age hippies who say stupid stuff without evidence. I am not on my personal computer right not but i will show the information that is needed.
You kind of are if you are implying that a person (human beings biologically what they are right now) can fly at will (under our current circumstances on earth) without the help of technology and the like. Because I highly doubt that Quantum physics directly says that a human being can fly at will and not under unique instances and without the help of technology. Unless that exact statement is agreed upon among academic quantum physicists then you are just promoting opinion and self interpretations of things you have read.
For the most part, the scientific community involved within the quantum world is at a the part where they believe it is possible for one day human beings being able to alter the quantum world through thought. There are tons of evidence to support that our very thoughts can change the quantum world. There are tons of evidence to support that just observing and wanting a certain outcome in the quantum world can change the experiments outcome.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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We await you peer reviewed evidence.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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