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TheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19266172 - 12/12/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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DieCommie said: You should be checking the research better. Especially if you are writing a thesis on it...
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8826658&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0033291712003066
HA HA HA. Fool Mortal! Your single study is no match for my Meta-Studies!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364038 http://www.hindawi.com/journals/drt/2012/962860/
It seems to be true though. My friends who believe their actions have no meaning or significance are definitely the ones most prone to being depressed.
Obviously that doesn't mean that the Mormons or Sunnis were right or something. It just means that we do better when we think our shit matters.
Edited by TheOtherAdamSmith (12/12/13 02:49 PM)
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TheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: hmmn]
#19266188 - 12/12/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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hmmn said:
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TheOtherAdamSmith said: Like the Buddha said, "anything I say that doesn't make sense to you, just ignore."
I don't think the Buddha ever said that, man. Could you find a source?
Hmm, you may be right. Here was the quote: “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
That may be a butchered translation though. Apparently it was actually this: “Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them."
So... Yeah. I might be wrong but I stand by not being atheist for health reasons. See my cites above.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
My friends who believe there actions have no meaning or significance are definitely the ones most prone to being depressed.
That has nothing to do with atheism. Atheists make their own meaning and significance. If your friends have failed to do that then that is a likely result of depression, not a cause of it.
I dont think your links support your claim.
Quote:
In some populations or individuals, however, religious beliefs may increase guilt and lead to discouragement as people fail to live up to the high standards of their religious tradition. Understanding the role that R/S factors play in preventing depression, facilitating its resolution, or leading to greater depression will help clinicians determine whether this is a resource or a liability for individual patients.
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qman
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Quote:
TheOtherAdamSmith said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: You should be checking the research better. Especially if you are writing a thesis on it...
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8826658&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0033291712003066
HA HA HA. Fool Mortal! Your single study is no match for my Meta-Studies!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364038 http://www.hindawi.com/journals/drt/2012/962860/
It seems to be true though. My friends who believe there actions have no meaning or significance are definitely the ones most prone to being depressed.
Obviously that doesn't mean that the Mormons or Sunnis were right or something. It just means that we do better when we think our shit matters.
What makes you think atheists don't give a shit about their life? A few of your loser/depressed friends?
I hate to break the news, but there are tons of religious people suffering from depression, in fact, many priests suffer from depression, alcoholism, and are sexual predators.
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TheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19266204 - 12/12/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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My friends who believe there actions have no meaning or significance are definitely the ones most prone to being depressed.
That has nothing to do with atheism. Atheists make their own meaning and significance. If your friends have failed to do that then that is a likely result of depression, not a cause of it.
I dont think your links support your claim.
Quote:
In some populations or individuals, however, religious beliefs may increase guilt and lead to discouragement as people fail to live up to the high standards of their religious tradition. Understanding the role that R/S factors play in preventing depression, facilitating its resolution, or leading to greater depression will help clinicians determine whether this is a resource or a liability for individual patients.
You didn't include: "At least 444 studies have now quantitatively examined these relationships. Of those, over 60% report less depression and faster remission from depression in those more R/S or a reduction in depression severity in response to an R/S intervention. In contrast, only 6% report greater depression."
It does mention that in some religious societies with extremely conservative, shaming traditions, religion can make it worse. Seems to be the minority though.
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TheOtherAdamSmith
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It seems religion helps if you find it on your own. It hurts if your society pushes it on you and you don't want it. Which seems pretty predictable.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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TheOtherAdamSmith said: It seems religion helps if you find it on your own. It hurts if your society pushes it on you and you don't want it. Which seems pretty predictable.
It seems nothing like the sort. I think you are just making this shit up as you go along to substantiate your belief.
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TheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19266273 - 12/12/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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TheOtherAdamSmith said: It seems religion helps if you find it on your own. It hurts if your society pushes it on you and you don't want it. Which seems pretty predictable.
It seems nothing like the sort. I think you are just making this shit up as you go along to substantiate your belief.
Didn't bother looking at the studies? It's cool, I like not reading stuff other people present too.
No worries.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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I did briefly look at them. They dont support your claim which is much bolder than the what the studies support.
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TheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19266418 - 12/12/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Care to elaborate?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364038
"The results of this study suggest that spiritual intervention can relieve depression and anxiety. Further randomized controlled trials studies are needed to evaluate the effects of spiritual intervention on biological outcomes."
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/drt/2012/962860/
"The systematic review discussed above indicates many more studies show possible benefits from R/S compared to those that show possible harm (61% versus 6% of studies). Nevertheless, a number of high-quality studies show that R/S involvement may increase the risk of depression in certain populations (those with family problems) or may worsen the prognosis of depression (a single study in substance abusers). Interventions that utilize the R/S beliefs of patients have been tested in randomized clinical trials and shown to reduce depressive symptoms, and clinical trials are now examining the effects of religious psychotherapy against standard therapies [62]."
Here's another that supports them living longer:
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2000/06/religion.aspx
"The odds of survival for people who scored higher on measures of public and private religious involvement were 29 percent higher than those people who scored lower on such measures," said psychologist and lead author Michael E. McCullough, PhD, of the National Institute for Healthcare Research."
and the follow-up:
http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/Relig_self_control_bulletin.pdf
"Studies published after McCullough et al.’s (2000) and Powell et al.’s (2003) reviews have yielded similar conclusions in random samples of U.S. adults (Musick, House, & Williams, 2004); older Mexican Americans (T. D. Hill, Angel, Ellison, & Angel, 2005); and adults in Denmark (la Cour, Avlund, & Schultz-Larsen, 2006), Finland (Teinonen, Vahlberg, Isoaho, & Kivela, 2005), and Taiwan (Yeager et al., 2006). These latter studies have also revealed 25% to 30% reductions in mortality for religiously active people, even after controlling for reasonable sets of potential confounds and explanatory variables."
Is it because religious views only survive in a calm and stable society where people are likely to live longer anyway? Possibly. Either way, the vast majority of the data seems to suggest that spiritual/religious views are linked to living longer and being less depressed.
Might not be for everyone but I'm willing to play the odds.
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GilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19266973 - 12/12/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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andrewmurray86 said: Don't recall saying they did. Please construct arguments that follow discourse.
Then why did you say that relative moralism is a mental gymnastic implying that morals can only come from a deity?
Please backtrack some more.
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andrewmurray86
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19266978 - 12/12/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Would you disagree with that statement about moral relativism?
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GilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19267044 - 12/12/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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andrewmurray86 said: Would you disagree with that statement about moral relativism?
While I do not fully agree with moral relativism, I would say that it is more sound and compatible with our reality than theistic morality is.
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andrewmurray86
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19267129 - 12/12/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well at least you're honest about it  I think moral relativism is a belief system they betrays itself consistently because most people who claim it, are not relative. Let's take the extreme examples. For someone to say "it is ok to rape and murder", the moral relativist must conclude that it is indeed ok to do so, even if they themselves do not practice such things.
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GilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19267284 - 12/12/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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andrewmurray86 said: Well at least you're honest about it  I think moral relativism is a belief system they betrays itself consistently because most people who claim it, are not relative. Let's take the extreme examples. For someone to say "it is ok to rape and murder", the moral relativist must conclude that it is indeed ok to do so, even if they themselves do not practice such things.
That is one of the shortcomings of moral relativism.
I myself subscribe more to logic and rationality. Morality is a construct that is derived from the believe that there are "truths" or intrinsic morals. It is the belief that there is right and wrong.
I think to depend on such a belief is lazy and is prone to errors such as your example. Every action, instead of referring to a set of rules or beliefs, should be rationally thought through. There is no black and white but that doesn't mean we should accept every action blindly like moral relativism does. An individual should be able to rationally conclude if an action will positively benefit themselves or others and if the pros outweigh the cons. This thought process should go into every action and every situation.
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andrewmurray86
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19267333 - 12/12/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That sounds very much like utilitarianism to generalise. But even then, the end goal of what you have described is making a choice between the most right course of action and most wrong course depending on the variables in the equation.
To deny the existence of right or wrong is a strange position.
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Psychedelicjournal
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19267392 - 12/12/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
hmmn said:
Quote:
TheOtherAdamSmith said: Like the Buddha said, "anything I say that doesn't make sense to you, just ignore."
I don't think the Buddha ever said that, man. Could you find a source?
Even if he did, thats no reason to embrace the saying. Ignoring things that dont make sense too you is embracing ignorance and capitulating to confirmation bias. Wisdom and knowledge come from doing the complete opposite, they come from not ignoring things that dont make sense.
I promise you the Buddha never stated that. Buddha was all about pursuit of wisdom and knowledge.
-------------------- “I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.” – Terence McKenna
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GilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19267730 - 12/12/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: That sounds very much like utilitarianism to generalise. But even then, the end goal of what you have described is making a choice between the most right course of action and most wrong course depending on the variables in the equation.
To deny the existence of right or wrong is a strange position.
True but it does not generalize or set any action in stone as right or wrong. Once you say "killing another person is wrong" then you have put a blanket statement over every situation even defending yourself. It also fixes the problem of certain people being selfish and thinking something like raping children is right. If a person puts his pleasure over everyone elses pain and suffering the majority can deem it "right" to put an end to that person doing that in any way they see fit.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/12/13 08:10 PM)
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hmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19268063 - 12/12/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Morality doesn't come from logic / rationality. It comes from a felt sense of things being right and wrong.
That felt sense may be heavily influenced by our concepts about reality, which come from our culture (including religions and philosophical ideas we've received from others).
Right? Otherwise you're left to try to demonstrate logically why such and such a thing is right or wrong, without reference to the felt sense of morality that we all have.
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GilbertC06
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: hmmn]
#19268255 - 12/12/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hmmn said: Morality doesn't come from logic / rationality. It comes from a felt sense of things being right and wrong.
That felt sense may be heavily influenced by our concepts about reality, which come from our culture (including religions and philosophical ideas we've received from others).
Right? Otherwise you're left to try to demonstrate logically why such and such a thing is right or wrong, without reference to the felt sense of morality that we all have.
This is very faulty. Everything can be demonstrated to be logically wrong or right. It's near impossible to demonstrate something as inherently wrong.
Referring back to murder.
I can rationally and logically decide when murder is "wrong" or when it is justified.
Under your model murder is either inherently wrong or right and there is no give to that. That is exactly why things like that go to court. People rationalize and use logic to decide whether something like self defense was justified or not.
It also does not account for the "felt sense" of psychopaths or anyone who has the urge to molest babies for example. For them the sense includes hurting people.
I mean the whole reason why shrooms and other drugs are illegal is because people believe that it is inherently wrong without seeing the evidence and logically determining whether it is rational to outlaw them or not.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/12/13 10:26 PM)
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