|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DividedQuantum] 4
#19260592 - 12/11/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Of course there is no such thing as a "real" definition of atheism (all word's definitions are created, not discovered). The word has certainly had different interpretations in different contexts. I think this disconnect of definitions comes from the anti-atheist bent that our society has. Being an atheist is a bad thing to most people, one of the worst things possible to many people. Just to survive in society atheists have to cloak their belief in veiled terms otherwise they will be oppressed, marginalized and ostracized not only by society, but by their friends and family. This is why when somebody becomes skeptical and secular they are often still afraid of the label "atheist" and they water down their skepticism with more palatable descriptions (agnostic, pantheist, spiritual, etc.). But in the end, they are still functionally atheist.
|
White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DividedQuantum]
#19260608 - 12/11/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: but atheism is not merely a lack of participation in a belief in deity. It is widely accepted to be an assertion that you think there is no God.
I personally consider myself an atheist, and I hold the former position. This goes with any phenomena that have a lack of evidence. Gnomes, unicorns, a monster called Sparnax living in my attic... I simply can't include things(participate in a belief) in my world view unless there is some sort of evidence to lead to the conclusion that such phenomena should be included in my world view. There's infinity more possibilities of things that exist then do exist, and I don't really see it as sensible to create a long list of all the things I believe don't exist. Much more easier to just not think about them or believe in them unless future evidence brings the possibility that they could exist.
|
GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: White Beard]
#19261429 - 12/11/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The idea that atheism is anti god is an ad hominem attack that theists like to use. When you realize that canonical definitions have traditionally been enforced by theists it's not hard to imagine why it is so. Agnosticism has also been adopted as a political term to avoid the atheist/theist debate. The modification allows people to cop out of the debate.
Perhaps the most revealing is that even when self labeled atheists make the correction that I am doing now, most people still vehemently oppose the term because they are afraid of labeling themselves as atheists as if it has some sort of negative connotations. Everything negative about atheism comes from lack of understanding of the terms and preconceived notions about atheists that theists have spread.
|
andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19261558 - 12/11/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Not entirely sure there is any other way to describe or define the term atheist (it's literally No God-ist)
It's a worldview that shapes how you interact with the world. It boggles me, the intellectual and philosophical gymnastics that one who claims the title "atheist" does when arguing things of morality, ethics, law and social justice.
There are plenty of people who would deny the existence of deity but want to hold to the values ascribed to said deities while claiming that those values are intrinsically human. Moral relativists are the most gymnastic bunch of the lot.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19261658 - 12/11/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Not entirely sure there is any other way to describe or define the term atheist (it's literally No God-ist)
It's a worldview that shapes how you interact with the world. It boggles me, the intellectual and philosophical gymnastics that one who claims the title "atheist" does when arguing things of morality, ethics, law and social justice.
There are plenty of people who would deny the existence of deity but want to hold to the values ascribed to said deities while claiming that those values are intrinsically human. Moral relativists are the most gymnastic bunch of the lot.
"values ascribed to said deities"
So people that believe in a god all have the same values?
How do they know if these "values ascribed to said deities" are good or bad?
|
andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: qman]
#19261770 - 12/11/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I'll take a stab and assume you're from an atheist position. How do you ascribe good or bad to values?
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19261825 - 12/11/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I'll take a stab and assume you're from an atheist position. How do you ascribe good or bad to values?
Just like you do, unless you have given up on your own ability to make rational judgments, and act like a programmed robot.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: topdog82]
#19261913 - 12/11/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
topdog82 said: the only rational position is that we don't know shit
QFT
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: qman]
#19262013 - 12/11/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I'll take a stab and assume you're from an atheist position. How do you ascribe good or bad to values?
Just like you do, unless you have given up on your own ability to make rational judgments, and act like a programmed robot.
My ethical standards come from outside myself. I'll ascribe myself to Trinity. So unless you are Christian as well, you probably don't ascribe your values quite as consciously to God. I do like that you recognise your values probably originated in the bible though
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19262333 - 12/11/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I'll take a stab and assume you're from an atheist position. How do you ascribe good or bad to values?
Just like you do, unless you have given up on your own ability to make rational judgments, and act like a programmed robot.
My ethical standards come from outside myself. I'll ascribe myself to Trinity. So unless you are Christian as well, you probably don't ascribe your values quite as consciously to God. I do like that you recognise your values probably originated in the bible though 
"My ethical standards come from outside myself."
So how do you know if those "ethical standards" are moral? What if you thought some of these ethical standards from the outside were immoral? Then what?
"your values probably originated in the bible though"
The bible didn't have the original patent for Christian like values, they existed before the bible.
|
topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 1 day
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19262335 - 12/11/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Look, god is a pretty big concept to just tackle and say "god doesn't exist"
There are 7 billion subjective definitions of God. And in order to say god does not exist, you would have to define what god you are talking about
I am yet to SEE proof of the God described in the Bible. I cant really say forsure but it really doesnt seem too logical for that God to exist
But I cant say forsure. So keep that in mind
The god that hinduism seems to point out seems to not be a living force. Or a higher force. More simply, The hindu god is "it"
I havent really been a part of this thread. But there are only two things I can say with certainty: 1) I dont know shit. All of the posters on this thread don't know shit. Nobody of the 7 billion people on the planet know shit. Noone knows shit 2) It is
With #2, keep in mind I am not saying god. I am not saying is in existence. I am saying "it is". Not "it is in a state of being". Simply "it is" no more, no less
That being said, it depends how you define "god". Some fucked up psychotic might think his penis is god. Some little kid prolly thinks his dad is god. Some poor indian farmer may think God is Lord Shiva who is hanging out on mount kailash. And some drunkard may think that no God exists
At the end of the day, existence, God, and state of being are all subject to the induvidual. As with atheism, agnosticism, and religion. And belief
So what do I believe? I believe we dont know shit. And that it is. Lol all that I can say
|
hmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#19262458 - 12/11/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
topdog82 said: the only rational position is that we don't know shit
QFT
Indeed...
|
GilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: andrewmurray86]
#19262490 - 12/11/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Not entirely sure there is any other way to describe or define the term atheist (it's literally No God-ist)
It's a worldview that shapes how you interact with the world. It boggles me, the intellectual and philosophical gymnastics that one who claims the title "atheist" does when arguing things of morality, ethics, law and social justice.
There are plenty of people who would deny the existence of deity but want to hold to the values ascribed to said deities while claiming that those values are intrinsically human. Moral relativists are the most gymnastic bunch of the lot.
You don't know the terms.
You also have no clue what youre talking about.
Edited by GilbertC06 (12/11/13 08:14 PM)
|
andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
#19262553 - 12/11/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
GilbertC06 said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Not entirely sure there is any other way to describe or define the term atheist (it's literally No God-ist)
It's a worldview that shapes how you interact with the world. It boggles me, the intellectual and philosophical gymnastics that one who claims the title "atheist" does when arguing things of morality, ethics, law and social justice.
There are plenty of people who would deny the existence of deity but want to hold to the values ascribed to said deities while claiming that those values are intrinsically human. Moral relativists are the most gymnastic bunch of the lot.
You don't know the terms.
You also have no clue what youre talking about.
no just a tertiary education in it, no idea at all.
|
andrewmurray86
Θεολογος




Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1,120
Loc: Hunter Valley, NSW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: qman]
#19262558 - 12/11/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I'll take a stab and assume you're from an atheist position. How do you ascribe good or bad to values?
Just like you do, unless you have given up on your own ability to make rational judgments, and act like a programmed robot.
My ethical standards come from outside myself. I'll ascribe myself to Trinity. So unless you are Christian as well, you probably don't ascribe your values quite as consciously to God. I do like that you recognise your values probably originated in the bible though 
"My ethical standards come from outside myself."
So how do you know if those "ethical standards" are moral? What if you thought some of these ethical standards from the outside were immoral? Then what?
"your values probably originated in the bible though"
The bible didn't have the original patent for Christian like values, they existed before the bible.
should have been clearer, I'm sure you know what I mean, this thread is full of semantics though so my bad...
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: topdog82] 2
#19262574 - 12/11/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
topdog82 said:
...two things I can say with certainty: 1) I dont know shit. All of the posters on this thread don't know shit. Nobody of the 7 billion people on the planet know shit. Noone knows shit
Thats a cop-out. People do "know shit". Hiding in possibilities in spite of probabilities is poor position to take.
|
TheOtherAdamSmith
Stranger


Registered: 11/28/13
Posts: 40
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DieCommie]
#19262691 - 12/11/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I'd say atheism is an irrational position. Studies have shown atheists are more prone to depression and die younger. We're able to train ourselves to believe things including in a higher power. Refusing to do so and cutting years off your life sounds irrational to me.
Not to mention whenever I've traveled and seen real religious holy men, they seem to glow and be having a much better life than anyone else. It's subjective but that's enough observational evidence for me to believe that they are onto something real.
Probably not winning any friends on this one.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
|
Quote:
TheOtherAdamSmith said: Studies have shown atheists are more prone to depression and die younger.
No they dont. You are jumping to conclusions on limited evidence. Regardless, believers are the ones in power and they regularly harass, oppress and disenfranchise non-believers. When grandma thinks that being an atheist is worst than being a rapist, you are going to feel like shit as an atheist at thanksgiving. If there is any truth to this bold claim at all, then the blame lies on the believers.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
|
Quote:
TheOtherAdamSmith said: I'd say atheism is an irrational position. Studies have shown atheists are more prone to depression and die younger. We're able to train ourselves to believe things including in a higher power. Refusing to do so and cutting years off your life sounds irrational to me.
Not to mention whenever I've traveled and seen real religious holy men, they seem to glow and be having a much better life than anyone else. It's subjective but that's enough observational evidence for me to believe that they are onto something real.
Probably not winning any friends on this one.

"We're able to train ourselves to believe things including in a higher power... Refusing to do so and cutting years off your life sounds irrational to me."
So tricking yourself to believe in things that you have no evidence that are real seems rational to you, because you might live longer?
Also, I think any studies correlating atheism and depression or life expectancy are not valid, I wonder who made those studies?
|
TheOtherAdamSmith
Stranger


Registered: 11/28/13
Posts: 40
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: qman]
#19262967 - 12/11/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I'm writing my thesis on depression, some of this research is done by real academics. Not surprising when you think of it. The idea that we have a purpose in life gives us drive. It's probably why we evolved it.
Choosing atheism means ignoring a tool we've evolved to live longer. We can't possibly know if there is a divine or higher order of things. I'm quite willing to convince myself that there is though if it means being happier and living longer. In fact, I already have and it works great. The key is just ignoring any of the religious dogma if it doesn't seem right and peaceful to you.
Like the Buddha said, "anything I say that doesn't make sense to you, just ignore."
Paraphrasing but something like that.
|
|