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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789455 - 02/12/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Yes, if you did not hold atheism as a dogmatic belief, in the first place you would not make the grandiose claim it is the only rational position, in the second you might be open to the multitude of experiences one can have through meditation and ritual that clearly disprove your beliefs, I believe in what I see to be true, with the understanding that my perspective is indeed limited, but I never simply believe what I WANT to be true.




Believing something is a rational position, or even the rational position, does not constitute dogma.  Would you agree that the only rational position to take on the orbit of the earth, is that the earth orbits the sun?  Notice, I didn't say that's the only possibility.  Just that it's the only rational position to take right now, given our knowledge of the universe.  Would you call that a dogma as well?

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
This is your burden and not mine, it is certainly not a mistake on my behalf.





There are a couple issues here.  One is the issue of atheism being a rational position.  Sure, the burden of proof is mine here, as I started the thread.  I have explained a lot over the last 12 pages - I'm not sure how many of my posts you have read, but it might help you to understand my position.

But the other issue is that of you calling me dogmatic.  Here, the burden of proof is on you.  It doesn't matter to me that much what the outcome is here on this thread. I just genuinely hope that you won't go around calling atheists dogmatic anymore, now that you've had some time to think about it.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789482 - 02/12/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
As I explained, a baby does have that capacity, it just doesn't have words for it.




And what evidence leads you to this conclusion?


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789511 - 02/12/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
As I explained, a baby does have that capacity, it just doesn't have words for it.




And what evidence leads you to this conclusion?




Simply by the fact that babies CAN think for themselves from the age of 5 and BELOW. If they didn't then they would be MUCH slower in learning. They wouldn't even know how to talk by the age of 5 if babies couldn't think for themselves. They just haven't had the chance to be taught and read about concepts of arithmetic and everything else. But the CAPACITY is there. The THINKING is there. And thinking about a higher power and the supernatural is available to them because it's such a huge generalization. They can think up of any monster, creature, deity. THAT'S EASY. A baby can do that.

It's limitations are in the specific and factual. Their imagination clearly exists.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789512 - 02/12/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.

:iamderp:


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OfflineSeaShrooms
The dude
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789517 - 02/12/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What he said ^


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
The dude
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789521 - 02/12/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
As I explained, a baby does have that capacity, it just doesn't have words for it.




And what evidence leads you to this conclusion?




Simply by the fact that babies CAN think for themselves from the age of 5 and BELOW. If they didn't then they would be MUCH slower in learning. They wouldn't even know how to talk by the age of 5 if babies couldn't think for themselves. They just haven't had the chance to be taught and read about concepts of arithmetic and everything else. But the CAPACITY is there. The THINKING is there. And thinking about a higher power and the supernatural is available to them because it's such a huge generalization. They can think up of any monster, creature, deity. THAT'S EASY. A baby can do that.

It's limitations are in the specific and factual. Their imagination clearly exists.




this i mean you posted first sorry


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789523 - 02/12/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.





So in that sense pretty much most animals except adult human beings arent self aware? So chimps don't care for their young? Chimps aren't social?

And looking at a mirror and not knowing what it is isn't a test of self awareness. It just means they havent seen a mirror before.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789529 - 02/12/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Way to cheerlead.

:havesomesantorum:


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789530 - 02/12/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
I didn't call you an idiot. Look back at the last few pages. That guy arguing with me is the idiot. Not you.



Gotcha, I didn't take the time to go back and read your debate with teknix. Trust me, I've been there.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789539 - 02/12/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.





So in that sense pretty much most animals except adult human beings arent self aware? So chimps don't care for their young? Chimps aren't social?

And looking at a mirror and not knowing what it is isn't a test of self awareness. It just means they havent seen a mirror before.




Many mammals exhibit the elements of self-awareness.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
The dude
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
Loc: Hitchhiking
Last seen: 3 years, 9 days
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789544 - 02/12/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.

:iamderp:




what is our age cut off for a baby, at 1 year i believe they become self aware, let me source that


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc: Flag
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789557 - 02/12/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

How is it rational to the think something is definite?


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OfflineSeaShrooms
The dude
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789562 - 02/12/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise

Consciousness begins in the 24th week of gestation, self-awareness they say however develops in late adulthood.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
The dude
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1,989
Loc: Hitchhiking
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Does]
    #17789567 - 02/12/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
How is it rational to the think something is definite?





Wish there was a :cheerleader: meme


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc: Flag
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789579 - 02/12/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'm a cheerleader?


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789583 - 02/12/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.





So in that sense pretty much most animals except adult human beings arent self aware? So chimps don't care for their young? Chimps aren't social?

And looking at a mirror and not knowing what it is isn't a test of self awareness. It just means they havent seen a mirror before.




Many mammals exhibit the elements of self-awareness.




Yeah, and have the IQ of a 5 year old human at best.

Exactly. Proved my point.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789595 - 02/12/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
A baby isn't self-aware, if you show it a mirror it's like derp.





So in that sense pretty much most animals except adult human beings arent self aware? So chimps don't care for their young? Chimps aren't social?

And looking at a mirror and not knowing what it is isn't a test of self awareness. It just means they havent seen a mirror before.




Many mammals exhibit the elements of self-awareness.




Yeah, and have the IQ of a 5 year old human at best.

Exactly. Proved my point.




Real mature. You know what you say about others your actually saying to yourself? Complete hypocrisy as revealed itself here today.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Does]
    #17789626 - 02/12/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
I'm a cheerleader?




That's up to you.

Do you wanna be a cheerleader?


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc: Flag
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789654 - 02/12/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ill be a cheerleader, i just gotta know what I'm cheering for first


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Does]
    #17789683 - 02/12/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Rofl, good question.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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