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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789105 - 02/12/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
First and foremost, that there is a part of the brain that searches for a higher power is well documented, for something like the last 40 years, I would be surprised if you haven't encountered this fact in your readings, on this, I will say no more.





You're taking me for an idiot and not reading what I said. I'm talking about babies.  When they get older, sure, they might search for a higher power. 

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Atheism itself by definition imparts no other beliefs, but in practice becomes the center, or dogma, of entire belief systems and lifestyles, this again, I think is common sense really.




At least you admitted it - atheism imparts no other belief.  Yet you still insist on using the word "dogma" to describe atheism.  You keep making claims and not backing them up.  In practice, as you say, what other kinds of beliefs to atheists have? 

Until you can tell me that, you need to admit that atheism is simply the lack of a belief in god and nothing more.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789131 - 02/12/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Babies naturally seek explanations for the world around them, more so than any other age group, this can include what we as adults would consider supernatural beliefs, i.e. imaginary friends.

The most important questions we ask are things like, who am I, how did I get here, what is my purpose, atheism encerts a strong dogmatic view towards the answers to these questions, to state the specifics is inane.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789183 - 02/12/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Babies naturally seek explanations for the world around them, more so than any other age group, this can include what we as adults would consider supernatural beliefs, i.e. imaginary friends.





So seeking explanations for the world us amounts to having supernatural beliefs?  Speak for yourself. 

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
The most important questions we ask are things like, who am I, how did I get here, what is my purpose, atheism encerts a strong dogmatic view towards the answers to these questions, to state the specifics is inane





This is like saying that a lack in belief of the tooth fairy makes someone have dogmatic views.  Do you accept that the definition of "dogmatic" usually includes appeal to authority?  Actually, the word "authority" is the one word that comes up in almost every definition of "dogmatic" i've read. 

I lack a belief in god, and am an atheist.  But I don't appeal to any authority and don't have dogmatic views.  You still have not backed up your use of the word "dogmatic."


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/12/13 12:54 PM)


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 597
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789185 - 02/12/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
First and foremost, that there is a part of the brain that searches for a higher power is well documented, for something like the last 40 years, I would be surprised if you haven't encountered this fact in your readings, on this, I will say no more.

Atheism itself by definition imparts no other beliefs, but in practice becomes the center, or dogma, of entire belief systems and lifestyles, this again, I think is common sense really.



Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Babies naturally seek explanations for the world around them, more so than any other age group, this can include what we as adults would consider supernatural beliefs, i.e. imaginary friends.

The most important questions we ask are things like, who am I, how did I get here, what is my purpose, atheism encerts a strong dogmatic view towards the answers to these questions, to state the specifics is inane.





Agreed. Before that idiot tried to say that babies have no right to think.

My argument was that babies have no concept of the Christian God. But they can see things as "deities" such as their parents. They also attribute "supernatural" to things around them to make sense of them. JUST LIKE our ancestors who could not explain natural phenomenon through science. That's why kids easily believe in the tooth fairy. They can easily grasp the concepts of deities or the supernatural. They just conceive those ideas as reality like religious people do. And thus they are not atheists.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789194 - 02/12/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

This debate is beginning to tire me, I have made solid arguments, using wikipedias definition of dogmatism, which does not specifically imply authority, and he is just being a contrarian, people have a great deal of trouble examining their most closely held, dogmatic, beliefs.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789219 - 02/12/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:

Agreed. Before that idiot tried to say that babies have no right to think.

My argument was that babies have no concept of the Christian God. But they can see things as "deities" such as their parents. They also attribute "supernatural" to things around them to make sense of them. JUST LIKE our ancestors who could not explain natural phenomenon through science. That's why kids easily believe in the tooth fairy. They can easily grasp the concepts of deities or the supernatural. They just conceive those ideas as reality like religious people do. And thus they are not atheists.




Before you go calling me an idiot, you might want to think for a minute about what I was saying. 

I'm talking about babies, not little kids.  Babies don't believe in the tooth fairy either.  They might see their parents as mysterious, but to say that the parents are "deities" in the eyes of a baby is misleading.  Yes, it might be natural for people to believe in some sort of "god" or creator.  But, left to their own devices, I would be surprised to hear a 5 year old ask those kinds of questions.  Maybe there are some.  But a baby that was born yesterday does not have a concept of god.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789232 - 02/12/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I think it is important to realize that even in the absence of words, we have many concepts that are very real, and a baby, who has not the word deity, certainly has the understanding of something bigger than itself.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789243 - 02/12/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
This debate is beginning to tire me, I have made solid arguments, using wikipedias definition of dogmatism, which does not specifically imply authority, and he is just being a contrarian, people have a great deal of trouble examining their most closely held, dogmatic, beliefs.




You're simply wrong. I'm not a contrarian.  I'm not dogmatic.  You make those claims and it is up to you to support them.  I just read the wiki on dogma - granted, it doesn't anything about authority in the first paragraph, but it does say "It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system."  I already asked you to demonstrate how atheism is part of a broader ideology or belief system.  You have not done so. 

Also, google dogma and read the dictionary definitions that come up. They all mention appeal to authority.

I have stated I have no problem examining my beliefs.  Show me evidence for god (whatever that might look like,) and I'll change my mind in a heart beat.  I just have not seem any evidence. Call me dogmatic if you want.  You're just misusing words.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789262 - 02/12/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I have clearly shown you my argument, your only defense is to refuse to acknowledge my arguements existence, you are an athiest truly, it penetrates into all your beliefs, clearly


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789274 - 02/12/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

From the wiki article on dogma

"A notable use of the term can be found in the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology. In his autobiography, What Mad Pursuit, Francis Crick wrote about his choice of the word dogma and some of the problems it caused him:
I called this idea the central dogma, for two reasons, I suspect. I had already used the obvious word hypothesis in the sequence hypothesis, and in addition I wanted to suggest that this new assumption was more central and more powerful. ... As it turned out, the use of the word dogma caused almost more trouble than it was worth.... Many years later Jacques Monod pointed out to me that I did not appear to understand the correct use of the word dogma, which is a belief that cannot be doubted... I used the word the way I myself thought about it, not as most of the world does, and simply applied it to a grand hypothesis that, however plausible, had little direct experimental support."



That sounds like a good definition to me - "A belief that cannot be doubted." Would you agree with this definition?

Because like I said, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong in a heart beat.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789286 - 02/12/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, this is of no concern, unless you can backtrack, an admit you have yet to answer my statements that comprise my argument.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789291 - 02/12/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
I have clearly shown you my argument, your only defense is to refuse to acknowledge my arguements existence, you are an athiest truly, it penetrates into all your beliefs, clearly




It penetrates into all my beliefs, just like the fact that the earth rotates the sun penetrates all my beliefs.  Or like fact that there is no tooth fairy penetrates all my beliefs. 

You accuse me of being dogmatic, and can't back it up.  I read all of your arguments, and have not refused to acknowledge them.  I addressed every one.  Read my above post and tell me if you agree with that definition of dogmatic.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #17789300 - 02/12/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Ok, this is of no concern, unless you can backtrack, an admit you have yet to answer my statements that comprise my argument.




I did answer all of your statements.  Go back and read the thread.  Or tell me what I have not addressed.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789311 - 02/12/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, if you did not hold atheism as a dogmatic belief, in the first place you would not make the grandiose claim it is the only rational position, in the second you might be open to the multitude of experiences one can have through meditation and ritual that clearly disprove your beliefs, I believe in what I see to be true, with the understanding that my perspective is indeed limited, but I never simply believe what I WANT to be true.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789314 - 02/12/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

SeaShrooms said:
Ok, this is of no concern, unless you can backtrack, an admit you have yet to answer my statements that comprise my argument.




I did answer all of your statements.  Go back and read the thread.  Or tell me what I have not addressed.




This is your burden and not mine, it is certainly not a mistake on my behalf.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789334 - 02/12/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:

Agreed. Before that idiot tried to say that babies have no right to think.

My argument was that babies have no concept of the Christian God. But they can see things as "deities" such as their parents. They also attribute "supernatural" to things around them to make sense of them. JUST LIKE our ancestors who could not explain natural phenomenon through science. That's why kids easily believe in the tooth fairy. They can easily grasp the concepts of deities or the supernatural. They just conceive those ideas as reality like religious people do. And thus they are not atheists.




Before you go calling me an idiot, you might want to think for a minute about what I was saying. 

I'm talking about babies, not little kids.  Babies don't believe in the tooth fairy either.  They might see their parents as mysterious, but to say that the parents are "deities" in the eyes of a baby is misleading.  Yes, it might be natural for people to believe in some sort of "god" or creator.  But, left to their own devices, I would be surprised to hear a 5 year old ask those kinds of questions.  Maybe there are some.  But a baby that was born yesterday does not have a concept of god.




A baby doesn't have the capacity to ponder god, let alone make a decision of belief or disbelief, either in certainty or probability.

The baby would be at 0 on the scale of -1 to 1, which would fall under agnosticism.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
    #17789403 - 02/12/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

As I explained, a baby does have that capacity, it just doesn't have words for it.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17789425 - 02/12/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:

Agreed. Before that idiot tried to say that babies have no right to think.

My argument was that babies have no concept of the Christian God. But they can see things as "deities" such as their parents. They also attribute "supernatural" to things around them to make sense of them. JUST LIKE our ancestors who could not explain natural phenomenon through science. That's why kids easily believe in the tooth fairy. They can easily grasp the concepts of deities or the supernatural. They just conceive those ideas as reality like religious people do. And thus they are not atheists.




Before you go calling me an idiot, you might want to think for a minute about what I was saying. 

I'm talking about babies, not little kids.  Babies don't believe in the tooth fairy either.  They might see their parents as mysterious, but to say that the parents are "deities" in the eyes of a baby is misleading.  Yes, it might be natural for people to believe in some sort of "god" or creator.  But, left to their own devices, I would be surprised to hear a 5 year old ask those kinds of questions.  Maybe there are some.  But a baby that was born yesterday does not have a concept of god.




I didn't call you an idiot. Look back at the last few pages. That guy arguing with me is the idiot. Not you.


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OfflineGilbertC06
Omnipotent to a fault.


Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789441 - 02/12/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GilbertC06 said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

GilbertC06 said:

Agreed. Before that idiot tried to say that babies have no right to think.

My argument was that babies have no concept of the Christian God. But they can see things as "deities" such as their parents. They also attribute "supernatural" to things around them to make sense of them. JUST LIKE our ancestors who could not explain natural phenomenon through science. That's why kids easily believe in the tooth fairy. They can easily grasp the concepts of deities or the supernatural. They just conceive those ideas as reality like religious people do. And thus they are not atheists.




Before you go calling me an idiot, you might want to think for a minute about what I was saying. 

I'm talking about babies, not little kids.  Babies don't believe in the tooth fairy either.  They might see their parents as mysterious, but to say that the parents are "deities" in the eyes of a baby is misleading.  Yes, it might be natural for people to believe in some sort of "god" or creator.  But, left to their own devices, I would be surprised to hear a 5 year old ask those kinds of questions.  Maybe there are some.  But a baby that was born yesterday does not have a concept of god.




I didn't call you an idiot. Look back at the last few pages. That guy arguing with me is the idiot. Not you.





You are really underestimating babies/kids. They ask those questions all the time. "Where do babies come from" "How are babies made" "Why do people die" "Where do they go when they die"

Questions frequently raised, not by adults, but by kids. Especially 5 year olds.

And in their limited concepts, their parents are technically their creator anyways.


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: GilbertC06]
    #17789449 - 02/12/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

You are acting like an idiot, to argue something you clearly only believe from your emotional attachment, makes you simpleton, are you just trolling?


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


Edited by SeaShrooms (02/12/13 02:09 PM)


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