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OpenQwerty
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#28629459 - 01/21/24 06:28 AM (7 days, 7 hours ago) |
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I am a polytheist, and I think that my position is 100% rational and fact-based. Let's start whit some definitions. A "god" is a living being that is eternal (at least: in comparison with humans) and more powerful than us. So, for example any river is a god, (in the Greek polytheism is traditional to worship the rivers) and we can said that even a star like the sun is somewhat "alive", and so on. The christian/(modern)Jewish god have no any clear definition (remember? "I am what I am" is his exact words) so it's really difficult to said: "he doesn't exist " as well as to said "he really exist". The ancient Hebrew have a "better way" to define him: "Our own god whose name is unspeakable". This is a very good definition for those -like me- that knew by their own experience that any god is "unknowable" ABOVE ALL for the man who directly experience him/her. But this definition is 100% bullshit for those have seen some gods, but never really experience any of Them. The psychologist James Hillman correctly noted that any deity "tends" toward monotheism. This is how the human mind works. If any of us has any direct experience of any deity, this experience is so shacking that -generally speaking- your entire life will become different (or at least: your entire life will look to you in a different way). OP: we know from mathematics that "infinity exist". Let's count the number of the points on a straight line, then the number of the points on a geometric plane... There are more than one infinity. Also keep in mind that if a being more powerful than us doesn't want to be recognize by any of us, he/she can do it. But often christians/hebrew/muslims mistaken to recognize the possible existence of their god(s) whit to worship him. So, the christian/(modern)jewish god may or may not exist; to worship him is an entire different things. Firstly...Every single god has his/her "agenda", every deity has his/her will. It sound (to me) like the most exact definition of the christian/(modern)Jewish god is "that god who has that plan for us". Than ...Even when a god/goddess doesn't really exist, the act of worship any being change the men who worship that deity, even if they doesn't really experience that deity. And the change is based to the real or the supposed "agenda" of the deity (that may exist or not, that may be interested to the mankind or not, and so on). Honestly speaking I choice who worship firstly by their "agenda"(if any), for us humans ....And I will never worship the christian/(modern)jewish/muslim god exactly cause of it. At the opposite...
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OpenQwerty
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So, do you think that the sun or the Moon does not exist? (Or a black hole. You cannot see a black hole). The sun or the Moon are gods by the definition of "God" in many ancient religions. You have just in mind a subjective version of the christian god. But hey, for example, Ganesha or Odin are even subject to die. The christian definition of "God" is not the only "Truth". You think that christian faith are not rational, so why do you accept their definition? Moreover, as I wrote before, their definition is really vague. A vague definition help both who want to believe and who does not want. And the christian god itself give about himself the MOST vague of the possible definitions. Then: any object may be seen as "infinite", from the right prospective (for example, taking some mushrooms). So, the sun, the Earth, the Moon and so on, are legitimate gods even if we assume that a God is "Who has no limits"(and even this definition is a quite Christian definition). But if u accept the christian definition of God, you should admit that we have limits, so we may don't see Who Can Do Everything. It is your logic that help "the case" of the christian god.
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OpenQwerty
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: OpenQwerty]
#28630003 - 01/21/24 03:18 PM (6 days, 22 hours ago) |
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If u accept their (christian) definition of "what Is a God", you either end fighting them or becoming one of them. Their definition is not rational, so it cannot be logically explained. Anyway, yes, in my ( un-christian) definition even the universe may be a god (like the other gods).
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OpenQwerty
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Alyssa]
#28630639 - 01/22/24 03:53 AM (6 days, 9 hours ago) |
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It's anyway difficult that a discussion does not become a "fight" if the discussion start from a very vague, non-logical definition. Than if "there are deep feeling involved", from both side, it is a struggle just to keep the discussion BARELY rational. My main point is that the christian definition of their god is made for to avoid (and not for to help) any rational discussion. After that, their god may be still exist. I have read (from a un-christian source) this definition of the christian/Hebrew/muslim god: "the spirit of what u feel in the Palestinian desert". Now: feeling are real, in the desert u can feel very strange things, so that god may exist. Even the ancient Hebrew definition, as i wrote before, is quite good and quite rational (assuming a polytheistic point of view).
But the "real point" of the Christians, when they discuss about their god, is not his existence, but to worship him. (even this made any discussion ...really difficult). I have hear many many time, from different Christians: anyway to worship him is good for you and for the society, even if he doesn't exist, just cause of his "agenda". I strongly disagree. To worship him is "absolutely not for me", even if he may exist.
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OpenQwerty
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: redgreenvines]
#28630732 - 01/22/24 07:40 AM (6 days, 6 hours ago) |
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IMO the whole "agenda" of the christian god is something that we should avoid. Anyway, u are free. I Will not follow his idea of what is good and what not. Even if He may come directly to my house. IMO ...Many other gods have better projects about everything. Why choise the worst? Just because of the biggerst number of followers?
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OpenQwerty
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom]
#28631187 - 01/22/24 03:23 PM (5 days, 22 hours ago) |
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In my life I have meet a lot of different Christians from the most different faction of Christianity, and IMO the differences between -for example - the Pope and any mormon are really tiny. Then there are Christians Who don't take serious their religion, but any serious Christians will tell u the same: sex without marriage is bad, u don't know the Truth somebody else does,the other gods of this Earth are evil, the idea of family is holy, you have to work and to be even happy to make rich your boss, and so on. In the western world only Christians (of every factions) and Muslims thinks that they have the right, granted by their God, to tell to everybody else what is good and what is the evil, based on their "holy Books"... This is a very huge "common ground", and it is biggest than -for example - the "common ground" that followers of the Norse gods and the followers of ancient Greeks gods may have. Their choice is their business, but until all of them still try to lecture the others (including me) about what is good and what not...I will be not happy to listen about the greatest of their God, and yes, I may even be a little "upset" about their whole "point of view". When I was younger I simply didn't care at all, but as I get older, I become less "nice" with that kind of people. An other "common point" between any kind of (serious) Christians is that if u are patient with their belief, (maybe simply because u have something better to do that to argue with them) they will immediately think that u somewhat support them, and this kind of "logic" destroy any possible patience from my side. Now: I don't think that every single christian are exactly like that, but: in several christian country, with several different factions of Christians, (in UK as well as in Italy, in Germany... in Spain) I have seen the same "trend", so I think to be able to said "Christians as group" are like that.
Fact-based Logic is the only way that I know for to reach something that look like a truth, but I am not the christian god, so maybe there are others ways...
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