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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] 12
#17780274 - 02/10/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Actually agnosticism is the only rational position. It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Atheism is the only rational position 7
#17780069 - 02/10/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not trying to be confrontational. That's just my honest opinion.
Ok, here are some things that I wrote over the course of the thread. This should help to clear up my position so that new people here don't have to sift through my posts.
"God" of course, needs to be defined. But it is not up to me to define something that I don't even believe in. Other than in debates like this, "god" is not part of my vocabulary. It is up to the person who claims to believe in "god," to tell me what they mean. But let's go with "god" as the christian/jewish god (although it still needs to be defined further). I am an atheist with respect to this god. If someone says "god is everything," then I would just question weather "god" is the appropriate word to use.
In a court of law, the defendant is found either 'guilty or not guilty.' Not 'guilty or innocent.' This is because there is a claim being made that the defendant is guilty. This claim is either true or untrue. You could also make the claim that the defendant is innocent. And that claim is either true or untrue. So there are four potential positions to take, not two.
Of course, you can't prove someone's innocence. In finding someone 'not guilty,' it is not a statement that they are innocent. A jury member might have their hunch (with varying certainty depending on the case/evidence).
I find god "not guilty" of existing. That is, there is not enough evidence to verify the claim that "god" exists. I am not addressing the claim that "god doesn't exist".I am addressing those who claim that god does exist. The burden of proof is on them to show god's existence.
I can't claim to know there is no god, but I do personally believe there is no god. I believe this with the same level of certainty that I believe there is no tooth fairy. I don't like to call myself agnostic about god for the same reason you don't like to call yourself agnostic regarding the tooth fairy.
It seems that the word "atheist" is generally misunderstood. Over the course of this thread, I have heard that "atheists claim to know that there is no god" countless times. There might be a very small minority of self proclaimed atheists that claim this. But believe me, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well (if only as a technicality). It is those who have not taken the time to understand the atheist position who see it as dogmatic.
If the word "agnostic" was generally understood to mean someone who does not believe in " " until they see evidence for it, I would use the word "agnostic." And of course, that is what agnostic means. But if society understood it to mean that, then the word "agnostic" would have the same negative connotation as atheism. Society takes "agnostic" to mean "well ya never know." That's why you wouldn't feel comfortable (I'm assuming) calling yourself "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are one. You wouldn't feel comfortable saying "You never know" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are agnostic about it. Yet you do feel comfortable saying you "don't believe" in the tooth fairy.
Now imagine someone coming along and trying to pigeonhole your beliefs - either you label yourself as "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, or you have an unreasonable disbelief in the tooth fairy. That's what it feels like to be an atheist.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (02/14/13 02:05 PM)
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 5
#17780131 - 02/10/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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a position on one topic of debate.... there's lots of topics to have positions on dude. Not everything is about whether there is a god or not.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: DividedQuantum] 4
#19260592 - 12/11/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Of course there is no such thing as a "real" definition of atheism (all word's definitions are created, not discovered). The word has certainly had different interpretations in different contexts. I think this disconnect of definitions comes from the anti-atheist bent that our society has. Being an atheist is a bad thing to most people, one of the worst things possible to many people. Just to survive in society atheists have to cloak their belief in veiled terms otherwise they will be oppressed, marginalized and ostracized not only by society, but by their friends and family. This is why when somebody becomes skeptical and secular they are often still afraid of the label "atheist" and they water down their skepticism with more palatable descriptions (agnostic, pantheist, spiritual, etc.). But in the end, they are still functionally atheist.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
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Quote:
sVs said: This whole thread; 

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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] 3
#17955468 - 03/14/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: Are you telling me you have never prayed when a loved one is sick? How old are you if you don't mind me asking?
Not once, and I have two dead parents, three dead grandparents, and a vast number of dead friends. Praying never once did them any good. What did prolong their lives a bit longer than they otherwise would have had, was science. Medicine is more effective than god. God has never done any sick person any physical good.
More importantly, what are you even getting at with this asininity? That because some people, when under distress, resort to hogwash and gobbledygook, god must be real? Give me a fucking break.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] 3
#17965611 - 03/16/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
I feel more that god means for me a deeper ecstatic interconnected sense of reality which is non rational--and more-than-human- in that it is beyond measure.
Then why are you lieing to yourself and others by calling this interconnectedness god? We already have a word for interconnectedness: its 'interconnectedness'.
I suspect you of playing these semantic games because you want relief from the anxieties that religions normally assuage (death, loneliness, sense of purposelessness) but have seen there is no good reason to believe they are true. As a result, you just take some mundane feeling and label it god and hope to confuse yourself enough to not realize that the very motivation that drove you to invent a god in the first place, your fear of death et al, isn't satsified by your invented 'god'.
In short, its an equivocation fallacy and your argument sucks ass.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre] 3
#17966022 - 03/16/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Everything is MORE incredible to me without any divinity, spirituality or religious explanation.
This ^^^
I find the real universe as it actually is is so much more beautiful than any stagnant religious dogma. I write about this endlessly here and in my journal when I can make it fit in a page or two, but there is soooo much more intense beauty in the world that science reveals to us that it literally fills textbooks. I could never do them justice here.
Whenever I communicate with close-minded religious people I'm saddened the same way I'm saddened by people who are too scared to ever experience the freefall of skydiving or the exquisite pleasure of some drugs. They will die never having experienced these sensations or learned the revelations of science.
It's one of humanity's saddest features.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: WScott] 3
#24463235 - 07/06/17 08:06 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lettuce preach
I care about behaviour and think matter gives rise to consciousness and we as humans understand a LOT about the universe we inhabit and the uniqueness of the human mind.
We know that we live in a community and that humans have evolved proportionally larger fore brains.
To fill the social vacuum of the fall of christianity in my own mind I replace it with the idea of mother nature. To appreciate what it provides and to not take for granted sustainable practices and environmentally inclusive development.
Christians are not the only one's with family lives or traditional values and if they base those on only a god and not the nature they live in then I'd leave them to their own sins.
The worst crimes a man can commit are murder and robbing and brutality etc. Common knowledge can say a lot about morality.
Communities and populations and culture are important and I think our spiritual nature is natural. Why someone would disagree with that? I do not know.
I have no belief in god but I do believe in a biological spirituality of energy, movement, forward planning, science, imagination(mental synthesis) and goals as well as the development of physical and mental capabilities.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Freedom] 3
#28626985 - 01/19/24 10:11 AM (9 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: well here we are
this is why anything seems possible to me
The existence of a single pixel or photon of light is as absurd and unexplainable as magic, as the flat earth theory or anything
Quote:
sudly said: Do you think that makes you an extra happy person?
not a happy happy joy joy kind of happy.
its like before all thoughts and belief systems, before all the ideas which create meaning and purpose, everything is innately amazing. that probably just sounds like another idea, and of course with these word squiggles it is. but when I just look there is a mind blowing miracle
and it includes being alive. its like say you died and then someone resurrected you. my god that would be amazing.
that's already what its like to be alive. its already that kind of a miracle.
its like unconditional wonder. or wonder in reponse to any and every thing. like that beatles song, "Because the sky is blue it makes me cry..."
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Ellis Dee
Archangel



Registered: 06/29/01
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17780118 - 02/10/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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What is your explanation as to why you hold that opinion?
btw, be confrontational. It is appropriate in this forum. Challenging each other's worldviews is the purpose of this forum.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17780133 - 02/10/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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You don't want this forum if you're not looking for opposition. You haven't offered any evidence that supports your rational. You'd do better in the Spirituality and Mystic forum with this kind of post.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17780969 - 02/10/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said: Common now, this is just becoming spam.
--------------------
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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


Registered: 10/29/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17780992 - 02/10/13 11:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's only an imaginary friend if you're a child. If you're older, it's a mental disorder. If you convince someone else your imaginary friend is real, it's religion!
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez] 2
#17781213 - 02/11/13 12:44 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: I think I've seen how this argument goes before.. And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.
I politely bow out
Viewpoints change all the time. It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


Registered: 10/29/12
Posts: 17,397
Loc: TURNT UP!
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: lessismore] 2
#17781275 - 02/11/13 01:12 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've tripped plenty of times and I don't confuse chemically-induced euphoria for spiritual revelation.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Space Monkey] 2
#17921098 - 03/07/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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It merely inflames people and makes them less likely to reflect on the position
I'm not here to coddle people and their idiotic ideas. If someone is too delicate to have their ideas attacked, they shouldn't be posting moronic drivel in a forum dedicated to attacking and deconstructing moronic drivel.
We have another forum for that type of delicate psyche one floor down the escalator. You can post any retarded shit you want there and everyone will simply hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
This forum is not for them.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
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Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre] 2
#17951311 - 03/13/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'll try to clarify my views on this yes/no issue.
If you ask me "is there a god? Yes or no?" I can't give you an answer. Because I don't know. I'm an agnostic. But because I don't know, I assume there is no god. The only other way to live my life is to assume there is a god. The only rational position is to assume that something does not exist, until there is evidence that it does.
This is perfectly compatible with agnosticism. One can argue that this is not the correct assumption to make. But we all make this assumption all the time regarding most things for which there is no evidence - the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc.
Let's suppose someone makes the argument that it's presumptuous to assume that unicorns don't exist. And let's say I buy their argument and now I think that maybe unicorns do exist, or at least i walk around professing my agnosticism about unicorns. Well, how does that change anything about how I live my life?
The same thing goes for god. If for argument's sake, I were to concede that "atheism" is a statement that "god" is impossible, and that "agnostic" is actually what I should call myself - Then I still don't see how that changes anything about my beliefs or my life. How is "not knowing" weather god exists different from "assuming" that god doesn't exist? The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the words "atheism" and "agnosticism" are often used to describe the same thing.
If I "don't know" weather god exists, then I'm not a theist. I'm an atheist.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (03/13/13 09:36 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: zzripz] 2
#17957470 - 03/14/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, because that is not realistic. Legs on humans do not grow back, but cancers, for example, have been known to go into remission.
No cancer has ever been shown to go into remission from prayer any more than amputated legs have grown back from prayer. The studies that are available show no difference whatsoever between control groups an experimental groups that were prayed for.
Your apparent astonishment that some of us have never prayed for sick loved ones is what's really astonishing.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


Registered: 10/29/12
Posts: 17,397
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: ADSUMONE] 2
#17964701 - 03/16/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ADSUMONE said:
Definitely not, because frankly I don't really care what you have to say, because whatever you believe or don't believe has nothing to do with me.
 Well, then might I ask what the fuck you're doing in a debate-centric forum?
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