Home | Community | Message Board

MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Atheism is the only rational position * 7
    #17780069 - 02/10/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not trying to be confrontational.  That's just my honest opinion.

Ok, here are some things that I wrote over the course of the thread.  This should help to clear up my position so that new people here don't have to sift through my posts. 


"God" of course, needs to be defined.  But it is not up to me to define something that I don't even believe in.  Other than in debates like this, "god" is not part of my vocabulary.  It is up to the person who claims to believe in "god," to tell me what they mean.  But let's go with "god" as the christian/jewish god (although it still needs to be defined further).  I am an atheist with respect to this god.  If someone says "god is everything," then I would just question weather "god" is the appropriate word to use. 



In a court of law, the defendant is found either 'guilty or not guilty.'  Not 'guilty or innocent.'  This is because there is a claim being made that the defendant is guilty.  This claim is either true or untrue.  You could also make the claim that the defendant is innocent.  And that claim is either true or untrue.  So there are four potential positions to take, not two. 

Of course, you can't prove someone's innocence.  In finding someone 'not guilty,' it is not a statement that they are innocent.  A jury member might have their hunch (with varying certainty depending on the case/evidence). 

I find god "not guilty" of existing.  That is, there is not enough evidence to verify the claim that "god" exists.  I am not addressing the claim that "god doesn't exist".I am addressing those who claim that god does exist.  The burden of proof is on them to show god's existence.

I can't claim to know there is no god, but I do personally believe there is no god.  I believe this with the same level of certainty that I believe there is no tooth fairy.  I don't like to call myself agnostic about god for the same reason you don't like to call yourself agnostic regarding the tooth fairy.

It seems that the word "atheist" is generally misunderstood.  Over the course of this thread, I have heard that "atheists claim to know that there is no god" countless times. There might be a very small minority of self proclaimed atheists that claim this.  But believe me, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well (if only as a technicality).  It is those who have not taken the time to understand the atheist position who see it as dogmatic. 


If the word "agnostic" was generally understood to mean someone who does not believe in "    " until they see evidence for it, I would use the word "agnostic."  And of course, that is what agnostic means.  But if society understood it to mean that, then the word "agnostic" would have the same negative connotation as atheism.  Society takes "agnostic" to mean "well ya never know."  That's why you wouldn't feel comfortable (I'm assuming) calling yourself "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are one.  You wouldn't feel comfortable saying "You never know" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are agnostic about it.  Yet you do feel comfortable saying you "don't believe" in the tooth fairy. 

Now imagine someone coming along and trying to pigeonhole your beliefs - either you label yourself as "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, or you have an unreasonable disbelief in the tooth fairy.  That's what it feels like to be an atheist.



--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/14/13 02:05 PM)


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] * 1
    #17780286 - 02/10/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Well to be honest, I am looking for opposition.  Thanks for clearing that up - that the spirituality forum is where people go who aren't looking for opposition.  I had a hunch.  i guess I'll be spending more time in this forum from now on. 

As to why atheism is the only rational position:  The burden of proof is on the person who claims there to be a god.  If there is no evidence for god, then the only rational position to take is that of atheism (atheism not being mutually exclusive from agnosticism).


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Withinity]
    #17780563 - 02/10/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'll try and address the above posts here.  Note that I said atheism is not mutually exclusive from agnosticism.  I am an agnostic as well. 

I agree that "god" needs to be defined.  But it is not up to me to define something that I don't even believe in.  Of course, I don't even know what I should be defining.  But let's go with "god" as the christian/jewish god (although it still needs to be defined further).  I am an atheist with respect to this god.  If someone says "god is everything," then I would just question weather "god" is the appropriate word to use. 

As for atheists going out of their way to disprove other people - I don't see what's wrong with that.  I don't understand why people don't challenge each other more.  For example, if a friend of mine is christian and really believes that I'm going to burn in hell, I'd damn well expect that if he's a true friend, he'd try and convince me to convert to christianity.

So yes, if you really believe something of such importance, you should be trying to convince people.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/10/13 10:27 PM)


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Aerial Boundaries]
    #17780739 - 02/10/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Aerial Boundaries said:
Well, no, atheism entirely precludes the existence of a god. Agnostics too believe that the burden of proof is on the person making the proposition, but the thing is that atheists are making a negative proposition of their own: 'God does not exist'. Agnostics take the view that 'God might exist, and the lack of evidence in favor of the idea makes it rational to continue thinking and acting under the assumption that there is no God.'





You're wrong. Atheism does not preclude the existence of god.  Some atheists might claim that god is impossible (depending on our definition of "god").  But they are the minority.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
    #17780768 - 02/10/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I disagree.

The human mind does incredible things with belief.
The placebo effect is a perfect example of this.

If one puts their faith in a higher power or maybe a type of destiny so to speak...The individual's will is likely to be far more stronger than someone who thinks rationally/scientifically.




I never said that belief in "god" is not a useful thing.  Maybe it is.  But that's different form the question of weather or not god exists.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: psychedelicchick]
    #17780871 - 02/10/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psychedelicchick said:
"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."




Precisely.  Who's quote is that?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
    #17780904 - 02/10/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:

I don't understand how it's rational not to believe in a higher existence?
Why is a rational mind so important to you?

I think a lot of the brilliant minds in the world and of the past lean more towards an irrational mind.




There is no alternative to rationality.  There are subjective experiences - we might date someone for reasons that we can't quantify or rationalize.  But that's just because we don't understand the complexities of the human mind.  It's not "irrational" to date this person either. 

If irrationality is an alternative to rationality, then there is no point in talking about anything, ever. 

If I accept someone's statement that they don't use reason regarding god, then I must use reason to understand why this statement might lead to a belief in god.  you can't have it both ways.  You can't decide on a whim when not to use reason.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/10/13 11:36 PM)


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: psychedelicchick]
    #17780916 - 02/10/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psychedelicchick said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

psychedelicchick said:
"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."




Precisely.  Who's quote is that?





Sam Harris from Letter To A Christian Nation




Lol, that's not surprising.  I'm a big fan of Sam's. The only thing I've heard him say that I disagree with was his speech where he criticized the use of the word "atheism."


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17780943 - 02/10/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
This whole thread; :facepalm:







Sure, if nobody believed in god anymore.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17780952 - 02/10/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Common now, this is just becoming spam.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/10/13 11:44 PM)


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #17780988 - 02/10/13 11:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ok now, seriousness, I demand seriousness. We're talking about adults with imaginary friends here.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: something super extreme]
    #17781000 - 02/10/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
It's only an imaginary friend if you're a child. If you're older, it's a mental disorder.
If you convince someone else your imaginary friend is real, it's religion!




Almost - if you convince someone else, it's a cult.  Gather a few thousand more people and it's a religion!


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Aedan]
    #17781171 - 02/11/13 12:32 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phoenician said:
I would define God as everything, yes, but that this everything has an inherent personal characteristic. Hence "God" not "the universe" or whatever. God being the universe and everything that exists beyond it. Would the universe exist if there were nothing to perceive it? If yes then who would be asking the question? I believe the experience of God exists as a unitive state between subject and object. Why God is not rational is because the rational mind cannot comprehend it. A subsystem cannot comprehend that which is meta to it.




If we can't comprehend it, then why do think it exists?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17781178 - 02/11/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:

So, what happens when you are really afraid? What higher function than prayer does a true atheist have?




What people believe when they're afraid has no bearing on weather "god" exists or not.  When I'm afraid, I'm afraid.  But I don't make up imaginary friends.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17781190 - 02/11/13 12:39 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'll add this: The argument from utility, which you have just used, is almost an admission that "god" doesn't exist. If there was any evidence for god, you would be pointing to it - not trying to convince me of the usefulness of belief in god.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez] * 2
    #17781213 - 02/11/13 12:44 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I think I've seen how this argument goes before..
And I don't think I've seen viewpoints change.


I politely bow out:shitdude:




Viewpoints change all the time.  It's only when we stop challenging each other's beliefs that viewpoints don't change.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
    #17781251 - 02/11/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
You seem grounded in your argument to the point were you just wanna have a big reply count.
I predict no words argued against you in this post is gonna shift your perspective.
Maybe in time life experiences will, but not this post.




Seeing as I'm a skeptical person in general, I don't think my position on this will ever change.  If one day I decide to believe in a "god" for which there is no evidence, I might as well also believe in astrology, or that elvis has come back from the dead. 

And yes, I'm grounded in my argument because it's a logical one.  But I'll change my position in a heartbeat if you can show me evidence for "god" (not sure what that evidence might look like)

I'm not being stubborn in my beliefs.  I just have no reason to believe in things without evidence. 

And no, I don't care about the reply count.
But If I can convince someone that they shouldn't believe things without evidence, then I'm happy with that.  If that requires a high reply count, so be it.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17782193 - 02/11/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
Then when I pray I don't really believe that what ever I pray to actually exists anyway.




So you're an atheist.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
    #17782210 - 02/11/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

I hear that. Still I'll choose agnosticism.  Here's my limited reasoning.  "God" is defined in many ways so god doesn't just mean a guy up in the sky.  Considering how many ways you can define the word there might be a possibility that one of them is correct.  Secondly I have to acknowledge that I have a very limited understanding of reality, creation, cosmos, tao, ect.  I know so little about what is actually out there it's going to be very difficult to guess about it.  I'd rather acknowledge that I just don't have a fucking clue and then I can relax and go about my business. I have nothing much to defend or explain.




You should read the follow up posts, I addressed all of these issues directly.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Godel Escher Bach]
    #17782947 - 02/11/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Godel Escher Bach said:
From my point of view, Atheism, theism, agnosticism, all completely bizarre ways to think.

Ignosticism is the word they have given for my 'beliefs'. I believe the wikipedia page has a decent amount of information about this stance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

Most often my conversations around this matter go like this:

Theist: Do you believe in god?
Me: What do you mean by god?
Theist: Uhh... don't you know?
Me: No, I have no idea what you mean by god
Theist: Well I mean GOD ofcourse, duh...?
Me: What is a god?
Theist: He is the Creator
Me: Creator of what?
Theist: Everything.
Me: So you're asking me wether I believe we were created or not?
Theist: No I ask wether you believe in God or not.
Me: ...
Me: ..
Me: .
Theist: God bless you.

So in my mind, atheism is just a stance that states "I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about but I don't believe it because I assume you're talking about this concept believe doesn't exist."

Foolish, in other words.




I addressed this earlier in the thread.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Recent Oversaturation Of Christian God Shit Here...
( 1 2 3 all )
fireworks_godS 4,701 57 11/27/05 01:15 PM
by Gomp
* Drugs and Christianity shroomsbury 761 5 02/03/03 09:34 AM
by Demon
* why christianity is bullshit
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
KingOftheThing 24,570 161 04/24/11 05:50 PM
by Holy Bud
* I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment
( 1 2 3 4 all )
World Spirit 4,363 65 05/05/03 09:33 PM
by CosmicJoke
* Christian Rationalism. An answer ? MAIA 1,339 2 08/04/02 05:08 AM
by MAIA
* Atheist Website responds to Christian Letter
( 1 2 all )
Swami 4,129 20 06/22/03 03:55 PM
by Sclorch
* Christianity, Colonialism, Capitalism and Islam. atomikfunksoldier 2,017 14 07/14/03 07:44 AM
by gnrm23
* Atheism.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
evilchipmunk 8,013 90 07/26/04 09:58 AM
by Hanky

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
84,889 topic views. 3 members, 5 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 16 queries.