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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] 12
#17780274 - 02/10/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Actually agnosticism is the only rational position. It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214] 1
#17783043 - 02/11/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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Mr Person said: Actually agnosticism is the only rational position. It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.
atheism is the lack of belief in a god- this is the definition used by pretty much every prominent atheist- they are essentially all agnostic atheists.
You seem confused and likely mislead by semantic bullshit put out by theists and mystics and those who think the existance of the word agnostic somehow renders it exclusive of the term athiest.
I'm not confused. "Athiests" who are really agnostic shouldn't cling to inaccurate labels. True agnostics do not form opinions about the existance of dieties either way. Anything else is just semantic hand wringing by athiests who want to have their cake and eat it too without any of the cognitive dissonance of believing unprovable faith based opinions.
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: johnm214]
#17785038 - 02/11/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
If I don't believe in a god, that's not the same as saying I believe there is no god. For me to believe in something, I need evidence. I have not seen any evidence for "god," and therefore I don't believe in it. I don't positively believe that god does not exist either.
If I don't specifically believe in god, then I'm an atheist. I'm an agnostic as well. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Oh trust me I comprehend it. I just think it's a bullshit argument. "Lack of a belief in god" does not equal atheism. Lack of a belief is agnosticism. If you don't positively believe that god does not exist than don't call yourself an atheist. In that case you are agnostic. Claiming that atheism is simply a lack of belief is just atheists playing semantic games to make their position seem less hypocritical and dogmatic.
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clam_dude said:
Words mean whatever people think they mean, and there is a general sense of what the word "god" means - it usually implies something supernatural, or a divine creator.
Yes exactly, thank you. And the "general sense" is that atheism means an active belief that god does not exist.
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johnm214 said:
You've yet to establish that atheism entails any faith based positions and I have no idea what relevance you think that article has. Dawkins has long ago stated he does not believe in god's absence but rather lacks a belief in god. He is one of the more sloppy speakers on this subject, however, so there are instances of him being misleading on this point more so than Harris, Hitchens, Dennet, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Dan Barker, et cet.
All of these preceding authors identify themselves as atheists and all of them are also agnostic (at least a weak agnostic). You have presented no evidence that this is in error except semantic infereces of exclusivity between the two terms and have failed to answer my questions posed to you. If you can't debate this matter, fine, but don't respond and ignore the rebutals I've made.
You've yet to establish that atheism is somehow compatible with agnosticism. Just because the people you list use the words incorrectly and out of sync with the majority of the population's understanding of them doesn't make your argument any more valid than mine. That's not evidence. And I straight up told you why I disagree with your assessment. I didn't ignore anything. It's not my fault if you are too myopically focused on semantics to grok my argument.
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17785600 - 02/11/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
But of course, what matters is what so-called atheists themselves define themselves as. I'm telling you that of the most prominent atheists today, very few if any, claim "god" is impossible. Dawkins, Dennett, Myers, Hitchens, and Harris are all agnostic about god's existence (although harris doesn't like the word "atheist," but for purely political reasons).
The same is true for all of the atheists I've encountered.
And I'm telling you that they shouldn't call themselves atheists if they don't actively believe that there is no god. It's a backpedaling cop out designed to maintain some semblance of credibility and to the reduce cognitive dissonance over having the same sort of beliefs that they condemn in others. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Let me put it this way. If you only passively lack belief, why is the descriptor agnostic not enough for you? Why do you need to tack on "atheist"? Why do you feel compelled to make a thread like this and defend a concept that (according to your description) agnosticism describes well enough on it's own?
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: teknix]
#17785838 - 02/11/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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teknix said:
A baby isn't an athiest, it hasn't decided anything. A baby is in ignorance, the same as agnosticism. Agnosticism is more admittedly so unassuming.
Horrible analogy.

Oh but don't you see? In clam_dude world all agnostics are atheists by default. According to him it's fine for atheists to define themselves subjectively by their own interpretation of the word atheism but agnostics who reject the atheist label are wrong about the suddenly objective ( ) definition. clam_dude, are you even capable of appreciating the logical contortions you are attempting to pull in this thread by claiming to have no opinion about the existence of god while at the same time trying to argue against the existence of god?
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17786962 - 02/12/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
First of all, I would appreciate it if you don't misrepresent what I have said. Nowhere did I say that all agnostics are atheists by default. I said the two are not mutually exclusive. I said that atheism is (usually) a subset of agnosticism. Not the other way around.
As for me defining myself by my own interpretation - i use the word atheist because it is understood to mean a certain thing at this moment in history. Like I already said, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well. So I'm not defining the word how I want to. If people generally took it to mean a disbelief in god, i wouldn't use the word.
But to clarify, I believe that "god," as I've heard it defined, is highly unlikely. That's why I call myself an atheist, not an agnostic.
I apologize. I did have that backwards regarding what you said about atheism being a subset of agnosticism. Still I think that trying to deny the mutual exclusivity of atheism and agnosticism is disingenuous. Richard Dawkins describes it as "unweildy" to make such a distinction, but not making it only confuses what is otherwise a clear and useful dichotomy. Atheists use that confusion to be just as dogmatic as theists without having to commit fully to their indefensible opinions.
While I may privately agree that the existence of god seems highly unlikely, as an agnostic I would never make a thread like this or make the sorts of declarative arguments you have made here. You say you don't actively disbelieve in the existence of god but then you turn around and argue against the existence of god, which seems very hypocritical.
Save the word atheist for those who 100% don't believe in god. If you are at all unsure, then leave it at that. Own it and accept that you are agnostic. People say we agnostics are the wishy washy ones but at least we can commit to being unsure instead of this weird hybrid belief you seem to be peddling.
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