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something super extreme
NIGGA YOU A FUCK NIGGA!


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Loc: TURNT UP!
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez] 1
#17780932 - 02/10/13 11:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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This whole thread; 
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Quote:
sVs said: This whole thread; 

Sure, if nobody believed in god anymore.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Quote:
sVs said: This whole thread; 

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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17780969 - 02/10/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude said: Common now, this is just becoming spam.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17803312 - 02/14/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
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sonamdrukpa said: Perhaps there are people who call themselves atheists because they were raised in atheist households and simply don't care and don't have an opinion. I don't know any of these, however. I do know a lot of atheists who were formerly religious, and they all have some story that ends with "...and that's when I stopped believing in God." They don't mean that they suddenly stopped having thoughts about the issue, that phrase comes right after they were shown something made them think that what they had been taught was wrong. That's active disbelief, even if it wouldn't be justified to say that that disbelief was certain.
Just because someone used to believe something and then stopped, that does not equate with disbelief.
Yes - it does. They stopped believing because they don't think those beliefs are correct - and that constitutes disbelief. I don't see what's so hard about that.
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Tell me if I'm wrong, but you're staying that people with strong atheistic views/positions, necessarily have an active disbelief. And it is only people who don't think about/care about atheism who simply lack a belief.
While I understand how you might think that, it doesn't follow. Most of the strident atheists - Dawkins, Hitchens, etc... really couldn't care less about atheism itself. The thing that unites and drives them is their dislike of religion. Of course, it seems strange to hold meetings and conferences based around the idea that there is no god. If religion wasn't around in the first place, they wouldn't be going around calling themselves atheists.
They still have disbelief in god - they actively believe that there is no God. No one's claiming that someone has to have a passionate disbelief to be an atheist. Neither do you have to be currently thinking a belief in order for it to be an active belief - that's not what the term means at all.
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I see the new atheists as being comparable to the abolitionists. Now that we have gotten rid of slavery, there is no more use for the word "abolitionist."

Seriously...religion is comparable to slavery?
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#17803565 - 02/14/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
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Just because someone used to believe something and then stopped, that does not equate with disbelief.
Yes - it does. They stopped believing because they don't think those beliefs are correct - and that constitutes disbelief. I don't see what's so hard about that.
You keep insisting on this idea of "disbelief." It really is a lack of a belief instead. Let me put this way - to me, "god" is just a non-issue. I haven't seen evidence for it, and it plays no role in my life. I live my life under the assumption that there is a god. The only time that I ever even use the word "god" is in debates such as this one.
So an atheist such as myself who doesn't get into these kinds of debates really never thinks about "god." Does this person have an active disbelief? No.
Like I said, if a defendant in court is found "not guilty," this doesn't mean they are necessarily found "innocent." But we have to assume their innocence. In the same way, I assume there is no god.
So if god is not something I think about at all (other than in these debates,) how is it an active disbelief?
I think that part of the problem here is that people can't imagine growing up without the concept of god. I consider myself fortunate enough to have been raised by mostly secular parents. The idea of god was really never introduced to me as a child, and always just seemed like some thing that other people believed in, the way we look at zeus.
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sonamdrukpa said:
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I see the new atheists as being comparable to the abolitionists. Now that we have gotten rid of slavery, there is no more use for the word "abolitionist."

Seriously...religion is comparable to slavery?
I didn't compare religion to slavery. I was saying the two words are similar in that they have a use at specific time(s) in history, and then become irrelevant (in the sense that nobody describes themselves today as an abolitionist).
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: liquidlounge]
#17808489 - 02/15/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Please dont spew bullshit unless you have something to contribute. 

lol
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Tryptamine W
Stranger



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Pelidc]
#17820720 - 02/17/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Tryptamine W]
#17820769 - 02/17/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tryptamine W said:

Yeah that's quite the piece of work. I feel embarrassed for those adults with imaginary friends who make fun of those without.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Zanthius
Mean Alien


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#17914061 - 03/06/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: If the universe is infinite everything that can happen should happen somewhere sometime
This is not true. It's a belief based on a naive understanding of infinity which is something that cannot be understood using intuition. For example, one very unintuitive fact about infinity is that there exist more than one size of infinity. That's to say, some infinities are bigger than others.
But back to the original topic: assuming space is infinite, then consider someone walking in random directions on a 2-dimensional plane. If that person walks for infinite time randomly, then there is a 100% probability that eventually the walker will cross over his starting point purely by random chance.
However, if the random walk takes place in all three dimensions for infinite time, then there is only a ~34.054% probability that he will eventually cross over his starting point. Even if he walks for an infinitely-long time.
In other words, if you move around randomly through space for all eternity, you will NOT necessarily cross over your starting point (or any other given point).
The mathematical proof in probability theory was given by Hungarian mathematician George PΓ³lya in the early 1900s. It's too complicated to get into here, but you can see it for yourself. It's called PΓ³lya's Walk. The probability drops with additional dimensions. In four dimensions, the probability is only ~19%.
So no, all possible things will not necessarily happen in an infinite universe given infinite time.
Okay, but if the universe allows for the existence of an omnipotent eternal being, then I would naively assume that being should have a specific molecular/biological/technological configuration. I also assume naively that there is a finite amount of elements which can contribute to the formation of molecular/biological/technological structures. How many dimensions are involved in the formation of molecular/biological/technological structures from a finite set of elements which interact with each other in a specific set of ways? The question is not if an eternal being will walk back to the same point given infinite time, but rather if any allowed molecular/biological/technological structure will emerge given infinite time.

I do believe that biological life is common in the universe, and that increasing top-level complexity over time is a universal aspect of evolution. Evolution on all planets might be evolving towards the same plateau at the end of the sigmoid curve. I don't think it is an omnipotent eternal being however. Maybe a super-intelligent very long-lived being though...
Edited by Zanthius (03/06/13 04:17 PM)
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#17966045 - 03/16/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
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Whenever I communicate with close-minded religious people I'm saddened the same way I'm saddened by people who are too scared to ever experience the freefall of skydiving or the exquisite pleasure of some drugs. They will die never having experienced these sensations or learned the revelations of science.
d00d, this is cool
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Since we're already way off-topic...
Those caves have always given me that creepy skin-crawling sensation, along with most underground bodies of water, for that matter.
I can see how people feel that way. Before caves became a big part of my life, I had similar feelings. But what most people don't realize is that once you submerge, the water is gin-clear; 500 foot visibility is not uncommon because the water in calcium carbonate caves has been filtering through permeable rock for up to several hundred miles. The water you swim in went into the rock as far back as the civil war and only now is emerging. All that rock filters every last particulate and leave behind only pure, ultra-clear water. It's even bottled. Ever hear of Zepherhills, Florida? When I pee in a cave, there's a fair chance some of it ends up in a plastic bottle on a supermarket shelf somewhere. 
There's also life down there. They get food from natural floods every few years that reverse the flow into the cave and sweep in enough food for the critters to live until the next flood. Since it's total darkness down there, the creatures that evolved in the caves have no eyes. Or more accurately, they have vestigial eyes that have scaled over since eyes are not only useless in pitch dark caves but they're also a liability because they can become easily injured or infected. The critters also lack pigmentation, again because colors are useless in the dark. Here's an albino crayfish I shot in Little River Spring in northern Florida a few years ago:
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] 2
#17969217 - 03/17/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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If Atheism is the default position then no one would be atheist, because the null hypothesis is your hypothesis negated. Therefore atheism cannot be someones position. If anything it is sciences position to unravel causation, and embeded in the premise
Man, sometimes you sound like those instruction books written in Chinglish by some Chinese guy who wrote the English translation by looking up each individual Chinese word in a dictionary. I can't make heads or tails of what you say sometimes.
Printed on the power supply of my printer:
Quote:
Make the smart grasp of the earthing wire as only lug nutting to chassis prior with first use.
Oh, here's another good one:

-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#17975192 - 03/18/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: what is it with you 'skeptics' and this 'tooth fairy'?
What is it with theist and this equally implausible entity called god?
How can you not see that the Tooth Fairy is just as likely as god? In fact, the Tooth Fairy is slightly more plausible because there are millions of children eye witnesses to her tooth-exchange while no one who isn't in a mental hospital or on neuroleptic medications has ever witnessed god directly.
but this does NOT mean ALL reality and experience can be reduced to chemical interactions!
What exactly does this mean if not "god"?
So far as I can tell, everything IS reduced to physics (chemistry). When you say that there is something else, and you provide zero evidence, it's functionally equivalent to saying that it's due to god or the Tooth Fairy as they are essentially the same kind of fantastical entity.
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#17980072 - 03/19/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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your asking me to explain what consciousness is? I do not know. I would be a fool to say I know. it is not an is, because it obviously can't be measured. How can you measure what you feel? But the impasse I am talking about---OK, I have been playing with this theme for a few weeks now. How from the emergence of modern science out of theism, Galileo, he used a tool didn't he to confirm the Copernicus astronomical theories. This tool can be seens as an extension of his nervous system, because with the naked eye he could not see deep enough into space.
Later comes the microscope, and then early 19th century we have the beginnings of modern physics whereby comes the MASSIVE tool particle accelerator designed to dive into subatomic matter. What they find blows their minds. That tool again is an extension of their nervous system. So now we are here, and the central mystery is consciousness. What tool shall we use now do you think?
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The thing with this 'tool' is you have to ingest it into your squishy insides. And this is diving into consciousness~~~
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zzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: JoieDeVivre]
#17984762 - 03/20/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Diploid]
#17985161 - 03/20/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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you will say anything to avoid watching the video won't you? = you moan you want evidence, but when it is offered you refuse to look at it
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Peace of Mind 1
Incel Basement Dweller



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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Icelander]
#18076205 - 04/08/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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zzripz
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
#18091523 - 04/11/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
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zzripz said:
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Who says science can't eventually explain consciousness? That sounds like bullshit to me.
and that sounds like promissory materialism to me.
No, I didn't say that science can definitely explain consciousness. I said you can't say that science will never explain it. There's a difference.
But I would add that even if science can never explain consciousness, that doesn't mean there is something other than physical material needed to produce consciousness.
If I say I DEFINITELY love you then I am doing aren't I?
If I say I WILL love you, what is that?
A.................
P R O M I S E
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teknix
πβπ
’ππ
π°π‘ πΌπ⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: hTx]
#18111542 - 04/15/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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