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Anonymous

Hate without love?
    #1777745 - 08/04/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So tell me, S&P posters, what sayeth thou?

Is it possible to love without hating?

Of course to discuss this intelligently you would have to define what you mean by 'love' and 'hate'.

Here I am referring to 'love' as a passionate desire or longing for a person or thing. (and by thing I am using the philosophical meaning of something that might be immaterial, like justice, etc).

If you love justice can you do so without hating injustice?

If you love kindness can you do so without hating cruelty?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777771 - 08/04/03 11:19 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hatred is one of the emotions I have the tightest hold on.

Yes it is possible to love without hating  :smile:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777790 - 08/04/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If your love for something was actually an attachment to said thing then it may seem impossible to love without hating.

However from the point of view of love for loves sake with preferences to certain circumstances but no personal/emotional attachment to these circumstances, you could have love without hate...maybe? just my initial impression anyway.

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: trendal]
    #1777796 - 08/04/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If love and hate are opposites of eachother, then it seems correct to think that one pole cannot exist without the other.

BUT, I don't think that means you can't love without hate...

Because you can hate without love, so the opposite seems true to me.

Also from experience  :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: trendal]
    #1777810 - 08/04/03 11:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think you can.  The only example I can come up with off the top of my head & while posting at work is that of the creation story in the christian theology.  If Adam and Eve loved God when they were still in the Garden of Eden, then I don't see what they could have hated there, before they ate the forbidden fruit.

I want to say yes, they can exist without each other.  I suppose we could only subjectively measure this, but a way we could do it is by asking someone who does not hate anyone/anything, and who does love someone/something,  to examine their feelings of love - then, wait until they come to a point in their lives when they finally do hate someone/something, then ask them to reassess their feelings about the person/thing they loved before they hated.  When they compare the two, perhaps a measure could be made then.  But then you'd be looking back in time at a love that previously existed, and it could be very confusing and difficult to quantify your feelings in a different time (much less for the present time).    I hope that made sense :smile:


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/04/03 11:42 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777888 - 08/04/03 12:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'll try to stay on topic.
There are many definitions of love, but to answer your question we need to examine the definition of hate. In your examples the word "hate" is used to indicate something you are opposed to. Like being opposed to injustice or being opposed to cruelty and in this case certainly you can be loving and at the same time "hate" something. But this is a useless definition from phrases contrived to extract a desired answer.

As it exists in this world, hatred can better be defined as truly the opposite of love and as such, it is as undefinable as love. To say you "hate" injustice is quite different from saying you hate a person and in many languages there are many words for hate, just as there are many words for love. Hate is a strong word and to use it to describe your opposition to something terrible like cruelty really dilutes its meaning.

So I would say that using the true definition of hate, true love and true hate cannot co-exist. I think this is something that Jesus understood when he said we must love our enemies, turn the other cheek etc. Lets not mince words here - to defend love with hatred is hypocrisy, pure and simple. And if you must resort to hatred in order to defend love, you must question just what it is you're defending.

So to answer the question:

Is it possible to love without hating?

I would say yes it is possible. Love does not necessarily lead to hate.

On a related note, I ask, does love lead to greater tolerance, understanding and acceptance?



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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777892 - 08/04/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well I didn't really explain it as well as I could.

So, some of us are of the opinion that we can love without hate.

I assume that most of us love fairness, justice, etc.

Then, if that is the case, what do we feel about cruelty?

We love kindness but ______ cruelty?


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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1777920 - 08/04/03 12:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That's a great response.

My take on it is this. Yes, hate is a strong word. And certainly in our society today we are taught in numerous ways that we shouldn't 'hate'. But I don't really think that is correct.

For example, love is also a passionate word. And if we really passionately love kindness how could we not hate cruelty? My American Hertiage dictionary says in the first meaning, "1.a. To feel hostility or animosity toward. b. To detest." And it defines 'detest' as: To dislike intensely; abhor.

As I can say that I truly love kindness I would in the same breath say I hate cruelty.

To speak of 'true' definitions is to try to put a meaning on a word that one is comfortable with. There really isn't anything wrong about that other than the fact that it might not help us to understand.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with using the word as the dictionary defines it.

For example, if I were to see someone torturing and mutilating a house cat I would quickly say, "I hate that."

On a related note, I ask, does love lead to greater tolerance, understanding and acceptance?

Tolerance, understanding, and acceptance of what? Cruelty? I may understand cruelty (or think I do) but I certainly do not tolerate or accept it. It is wrong.


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777924 - 08/04/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

To love without hating first requires the realization that love and hate are mutually interdependent, and that therefore any distinguishment made between the two is an excercise in emotional entanglement.

>> On a related note, I ask, does love lead to greater tolerance, understanding and acceptance?

I would look to Tibet for the answer to this question. Buddhism is a religion that places much emphasis on the applied cultivation of love and compassion. Unlike Christianity, a lifetime of effort is undertaken to improve these two human virtues, rather than wishing really hard that a Spirt-Man will do it for you. (Ohh, that was bitter.)

The Tibetan people, in their long, peaceful national existence, attained extraordinary success this way. And as such, under Chinese occupation for the past 44 years, the Tibetan people still adhere to tolerance of the Chinese, compasssion for the Chinese, and above all, love and hope for all sentient beings.

There is a story of a monk who was imprisoned because he would not renounce his Buddhist beliefs. In prison, he suffered daily beatings, starvation, and cruel living conditions. After many years, he was finally released. When asked his greastest fear of the Chinese prisons, he replied with a resolute smile and said: "My greatest fear was that I might lose my compassion for the soldiers."






--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (08/04/03 01:00 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: Ped]
    #1777929 - 08/04/03 12:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That sounds good but could you elaborate on that?


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777950 - 08/04/03 01:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes.

I'm sure you've heard the old quip: "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

The answer is silence. Your left and your right hand, opposites, are mutually interdepent on eachother for purpose of making a clapping sound. The absence of one means the inaction of the other. As such, the absence of hate means the inaction of love.

As such, having all experienced the insurmountable power of love, and the petty, ridiculous nature of hate, we can all smile and understand that without loathing and dejection, there could not be the unifying resounding thunder of love. Therefore, to view love and hate (fear is a better word, I think) as opposites that compete with one another, and are incompatible with one another, two internal or external emotions that mix like oil and water, only confuses the mind and leads to misunderstanding.

There cannot be form without emptiness. Emptiness then, is also form, and form is also emptiness. No light without dark, no sound without silence. Darkness is a medium thruogh which light travels, silence a medium through which sound manifests, and hate a medium through which love permeates.





--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777958 - 08/04/03 01:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

> If love and hate are opposites of eachother, then it seems correct to think that one pole cannot exist without the other.

Within our dualistic reality, I would agree with you. Hate is defined by love and love is defined by hate. One cannot exist without the other. Dualism requires both.

> If Adam and Eve loved God when they were still in the Garden of Eden, then I don't see what they could have hated there, before they ate the forbidden fruit.

I would agree with this. I have always looked at the parable as a description of the awareness of our duality. In other words, Adam and Eve were not aware of duality until after they ate the forbidden fruit.


--------------------
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: Seuss]
    #1777962 - 08/04/03 01:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

>  "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
> The answer is silence.

Try again young grasshopper.  :smile:



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777967 - 08/04/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

a quote from a fellow shroomerite (don't remember who it was):

"If you stop hating the 'hate',
You'll start seeing the love."

if you won't accept my definition of "true hate", then let me give you my thoughts on true love. as you know there are three kinds: philos, eros and agape. of these, the greatest is agape - unconditional love, the love that god has for us, the love that Jesus spoke of, the love He tried to bring to the world. it means to love your enemies, to love the haters and to love those that are cruel to you.

It's easy to say "I hate cruelty" or "I hate injustice" but as you said earlier, these are immaterial things. vague concepts which conveniently avoid that fact that for there to be cruelty, there must be those who are being cruel. and for there to be injustice, there must be those who are unjust. these are the PEOPLE that you must deal with. the people who are loved or hated. the people that you must love, regardless of their actions, if you are to be one of those that bring true love.


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: Seuss]
    #1777969 - 08/04/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

>> Try again young grasshopper.

If you have a differing opinion, I'd gladly hear it.

>> "If you stop hating the 'hate',
You'll start seeing the love."


Does this mean to suggest that hate distorts our perception of love when our energy is directed toward hatred? Does it imply that effort undertaken to avoid entertaining our compulsion to hate distasteful people and situations would result in a more loving disposition toward our surroundings, no matter what they may be?


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: Seuss]
    #1777975 - 08/04/03 01:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Duality is pervasive in the Bible. Notably, Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and money. You will either hate the one and love the other or love the one and hate the other." (my paraphase)

But I am not appealing to any authority through sacred texts. I am looking for a philosophical answer that is consistent.

I think that many of us have been influenced by our cultural conditioning and are quick to say we can have love without hate. To me it is obvious that isn't so.


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: ]
    #1777988 - 08/04/03 01:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm... from a philosophical perspective...

If you draw the yin-yang on a sheet of paper... the black side is hate, the white side is love, the circle containing both is our dualistic reality and the paper is ...


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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1778009 - 08/04/03 01:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
a quote from a fellow shroomerite (don't remember who it was):

"If you stop hating the 'hate',
You'll start seeing the love."

if you won't accept my definition of "true hate", then let me give you my thoughts on true love. as you know there are three kinds: philos, eros and agape. of these, the greatest is agape - unconditional love, the love that god has for us, the love that Jesus spoke of, the love He tried to bring to the world. it means to love your enemies, to love the haters and to love those that are cruel to you.

It's easy to say "I hate cruelty" or "I hate injustice" but as you said earlier, these are immaterial things. vague concepts which conveniently avoid that fact that for there to be cruelty, there must be those who are being cruel. and for there to be injustice, there must be those who are unjust. these are the PEOPLE that you must deal with. the people who are loved or hated. the people that you must love, regardless of their actions, if you are to be one of those that bring true love.





That was extremely well said.

I missed this whole thread up in the initial post by mentioning "a person".

I totally agree with what you just said, not that I act that way.

I think Ped and you make very good points on the 'loving others' issue. But my main point was that there is nothing wrong with hating if it is properly understood.


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Re: Hate without love? [Re: Seuss]
    #1778010 - 08/04/03 01:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The yin-yang emblem implies very forcefully a cyclic motion. Concisely, it is meant to suggest that the Tao oscillates backward and forward between either extreme of light and dark. It is we who apply attributes to light and dark, not the Tao. When either extreme reaches it's peak, therein lies the seed of it's opposite (the dots), and it will invariably give way to new beginnings. The emblem is meant to imply that light and dark are what drive eachother, and are locked in this cycle. The absence of either means the inaction of the other.

As reference, the Tao is "that from which nothing can be removed."



--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Anonymous

Re: Hate without love? [Re: Seuss]
    #1778019 - 08/04/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Hmmm... from a philosophical perspective...

If you draw the yin-yang on a sheet of paper... the black side is hate, the white side is love, the circle containing both is our dualistic reality and the paper is ...




more than likely a dead tree.


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