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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Could we please get over this label bullshit?
    #1776974 - 08/04/03 12:47 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I find this particular forum to be one of the more stimulating forums I visit throughout the day, causing me to frequent it more than most others. There is usually excellent, well thought out (I said usually) discussion about relevant, pertinent, and interesting topics.

But this is the thing that makes me crazy... "Liberal". "Rightie". "Conservative". "Leftie". Not to mention "gay-basher", "Democratic Cock-Nibbler", and "Bush Ass-Muncher".

I find that the simple inclusion of these labels - whether they are referring to a specific person and their primary belief system, the political slant of a particular topic, or to a more macro-scale group of people or ideas - lessens the primacy of the discussion. As has been pointed out a few times in the last few days, I think it's like using the definition of a word to define the word itself. When you simply and sweepingly categorize something/one as "whatever", you have taken the burdon of your own argument and placed it on the preconceived ideas - or definitions - associated with that label.

When you enter a discussion by saying "you righties...", you have taken the onus of defending your position off of yourself, and placed it onto the pile of notions we already have about "those righties", as well as polluting the conversation with the thoughts of what kind of person would start a conversation with that phrase, what they hope to get out of it, and how badly and in what direction their contribution to the discussion is going to be skewed.

When you defend a position by stating that it's "just a bunch of libbie bullshit", then you haven't said anything of your own. You have proven nothing, said nothing, lent nothing to the forum. You defined the word with the word. If it's bullshit, explain why it's bullshit - try to keep the political leanings of the shit in question out of it.

If you care to defend the Bush administration, give your reasons for defending them. Do not chalk up any resistance to your points to "lefty witch-hunts". Give your reasons for defending the administration and your position

If you want to blast the administration for it's policy and behaviour, then do so with facts and information and well thought out commentary; please do not try to do so by inferring that "all right wingers are pompous assholes who would see the truth if they pulled their heads out of their asses for long enough." This is NOT an argument and is more likely to get your ignored than taken seriously.

I think some people get frustrated because they start to think that people who disagree with them, (a) are personally affronting them by refusing to see the logic of their 'argument', and (b) simply incapable of seeing the 'truth'. These are not black and white arguments, and the discussions of them will never be as cut and dried as simply "I'm right and you are wrong. The End."

If you feel like people are not getting what you have to say, and you feel strongly enough about what it is you're saying to be here in the first place and to take the time to type it all out, then take it as a personal challenge. Maybe you are not communicating your point effectively. Maybe you are using so many of these labels as arguments of convenience that people aren't quite sure what you're trying to say. Challenge yourself to master your language in such a way that people will have no choice but to understand what it is you're trying to say.

Now, whether you can get them to agree with you or not... well, I guess that's why we have this forum in the first place.

Gern


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1777230 - 08/04/03 02:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

whatever, you cheap-labor conservative.

j/k. yeah, you're right, it's a hinderance to logical discourse.... but this is politics, logic doesn't matter.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1777234 - 08/04/03 02:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Every noun is a label. They're everywhere. Deal with it.

Or should we do what that one alien race did in that South Park episode and call every person, place, or thing a "Marmbla"?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1777272 - 08/04/03 02:59 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It was Marklar. Man you really Marklared that up.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: ]
    #1777279 - 08/04/03 03:04 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No. I'm fairly certain it was Marmbla. In any case you just used it incorrectly. It's supposed to replace nouns, not verbs.


Translation:
No. I'm fairly certain it was Marmbla. In any marmbla you just used it incorrectly. It's supposed to replace marmblas, not marmblas.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1777335 - 08/04/03 04:04 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No, it was Marklar. Maybe you're thinking of the episode with NAMBLA in it.

http://www.nambla1.de/


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 1 hour
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1777372 - 08/04/03 04:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Every noun is a label. They're everywhere. Deal with it.





Using labels such as Liberal/left/right etc means you presuppose how a person thinks on a whole range of issues rather than simply the one currently under discussion. It seems like a shortcut to thinking to me. So of course every noun has the properties of a label but as we have a multitude of labels to choose from always applying the same few loaded labels, whatever the circumstance, limits our thinking.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777387 - 08/04/03 04:38 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just generally pro everything:

Pro gun
Pro welfare
Pro Minnimum wage
Pro Iraq war
Pro Choice
Pro Life (in some cases)
Pro School Vouchers
Pro privatization education
Pro drug reform
Pro gay marriage (or at least giving gay relationships the same treatment as hererosexual relationships)
Pro seperation of church and state


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1777395 - 08/04/03 04:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

They forget that to unite everybody, we can't all be split up into different groups.. it has to just simply be "us," not as in United States, but like "us," People; Earth.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1777396 - 08/04/03 04:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You can wish that all you'd like. It'll never happen and wishing it were so is very unrealistic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1777399 - 08/04/03 04:47 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Except for when it's done for fun and profit!


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 1 hour
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1777402 - 08/04/03 04:51 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You can wish that all you'd like. It'll never happen and wishing it were so is very unrealistic.




It seems more unrealistic to me to think that we will continue in our current vein for too long.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 1 hour
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1777406 - 08/04/03 04:54 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Does that mean you could also have these "labels" applied to you?

Pro gun control
Pro the anti war movement
Pro abortion etc etc

A complex man of many contradictions!  :lol: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1777470 - 08/04/03 06:46 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think it is possible to NOT lable something. Therefore i won't go through the hastle.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 1 hour
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1777604 - 08/04/03 09:30 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Do you agree that we can choose better or more accurate labels?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777611 - 08/04/03 09:39 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Like how? I happen to think aboot most of the labels used to describe people tend to be truthful. Call it like it is, if someone says something ignorant, that makes them ignorant.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777619 - 08/04/03 09:50 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Do you agree that we can choose better or more accurate labels?



You can't make everyone happy.

What's a good label to me, may suck to you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 1 hour
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1777621 - 08/04/03 09:54 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Inny/Luvvie - Basically labels such as left/right liberal/conservative can define somebody accurately when applied to their stance on a specific issue but to label someone as simply one of these categories in general supposes you know their thinking on countless different issues which even for you highly intelligent guys would remain impossible.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777625 - 08/04/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't agree. It's not that hard to get a fairly accurate feel for peoples stances after they've been here for awhile.

Does that mean that everyone who is called a rightie or a leftie must always take a stance in that direction? Not at all.

But it's not often too far from the mark.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Could we please get over this label bullshit? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777630 - 08/04/03 10:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think it's safe to say that you are a Libbie. No offense ofcourse.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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