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Invisiblesparkle
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Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! * 1
    #17764857 - 02/07/13 10:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I am sick of pressure cooking grain bags so I finally had the courage to do this bulk sterilization that they do in China. Wrapped in double layer tarp with insulation in between.
The first batch was 2,100 pound grain bags. About 20 contaminated. They are the ones in the big trays without holes in the very bottom.

It took 10 hours to get it to 100 deg C then 8 hours after that.

Now I'm upping the stakes 3500 bags but this time I put it up on wood planks

Finally after 18 hours, it's 100ºC. Another 8 hours to go...
Does anyone know if I can lessen the 100ºC phase since it was above the 75ºC for like 9 hours?

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Offlinesolumvita
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: sparkle]
    #17765998 - 02/08/13 04:05 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Sparkle if you growing oysters and fast growing species the 80 deg C for 8 hours will be enough, well done for getting it to 100 deg! what insulation are you using?


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Offlinechefinainteasy
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: solumvita]
    #17766363 - 02/08/13 08:12 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I cant remember if you have shown before, but what is your stem producing device?


--------------------
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OfflineDarkman
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: solumvita]
    #17766593 - 02/08/13 10:23 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Nice.

?
Quote:

solumvita said:

80 deg C for 8 hours will be enough, well done for getting it to 100 deg! what insulation are you using?




I thought you can't pasteurize grain without contams?

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Invisiblearago
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Darkman]
    #17767749 - 02/08/13 01:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Wow.  All I can say is Wow.
You are industrious!

And you have hella motorcycles in the background. :laugh:

Edited by arago (02/08/13 01:52 PM)

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Invisiblesparkle
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: arago]
    #17768514 - 02/08/13 04:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Solumvita, in the end I waited for the 8 hours to finish. I put tarp, then roofing insulation then tarp again. It was a hot day and before we piled up the trays we put it out in the sun for a couple of hours, I'm guessing the inside of the bag reached 50�C before we fired it up.
Chef, it's a couple of drums fitted with a polypipe with holes.
Darkman, for the longest time I also thought there is no substitute for pressure cooking but I thought if the heavily supplemented bags can be done this way, in fact most of China and south east asia that way, then it will be good for grain bags too.
arago, hahaha, that's a rice farm in the background, all the workers have motorcycles.

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OfflineShu
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: sparkle]
    #17768806 - 02/08/13 05:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sparkle said:
Does anyone know if I can lessen the 100ºC phase since it was above the 75ºC for like 9 hours?




Sterilization at 121C takes 10 minutes. Each 10 °C change results in a time change by a factor of 10. Your sterilization at 100C is 20C less than 121C so you require 100 X 10 minutes = 17hr to sterilize. Also, 80C is 40C less than 120C so sterilization would take place in 10,000 X 10 minutes = 2 months.

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Invisiblesparkle
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Shu]
    #17770305 - 02/08/13 10:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

hahaha...two months. But the standard is 8 hours for 100C

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OfflineDarkman
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: sparkle]
    #17771267 - 02/09/13 03:47 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sparkle said:
hahaha...two months. But the standard is 8 hours for 100C




If this is the proven standard why not stick with it.

Compare the cost of running for 18 hours
versus the cost of 3500 pounds of grain.

I still cant understand how bacteria is killed
at 80c

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Shu]
    #17771427 - 02/09/13 06:33 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shu said:
Quote:

sparkle said:
Does anyone know if I can lessen the 100ºC phase since it was above the 75ºC for like 9 hours?




Sterilization at 121C takes 10 minutes. Each 10 °C change results in a time change by a factor of 10. Your sterilization at 100C is 20C less than 121C so you require 100 X 10 minutes = 17hr to sterilize. Also, 80C is 40C less than 120C so sterilization would take place in 10,000 X 10 minutes = 2 months.




Please don't just make stuff up.

8 hours at 100C will properly sterilize grains for mushroom growing.  I've been doing it for years.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineShu
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #17771564 - 02/09/13 07:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Smarter people than me made that up, I just did the calculations.

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Offlinet3chnobily
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Shu]
    #17771655 - 02/09/13 08:23 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Apples to oranges to some extent.  Canned goods (anerobic, long term storage) and grain bags (aerobic, short term storage) have different requirements.  Still great science, always good to have some solid numbers to start with.  Thank you. going in the mushroom folder.

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Offlinesuperfunkibey
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: sparkle]
    #17776029 - 02/10/13 04:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Sparkle, what do you plan on growing with all those bags?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Shu]
    #17776168 - 02/10/13 06:56 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shu said:
Smarter people than me made that up, I just did the calculations.




No problem.  One of the harder things is learning how to apply science from other fields.

We're not canning food for long term storage where any leftover bacteria can begin to multiply over a few months and make us sick.  We're giving our substrates a window of opportunity to fully colonize the substrates before those organisms can multiply to harmful numbers.  Once the substrate is colonized, mycelium will eat any bacteria or mold spores for a meal.

It's been said many times that it would take 24 hours or longer at 121C to fully sterilize a jar of grains, but in reality we use 90 minutes because that's what it takes to get that window of opportunity without over-cooking our grains until they turn to mush.  We refer to this as sterilization, even though by food safety standards it isn't.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Invisiblesparkle
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #17783926 - 02/11/13 03:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

superfb, they are spawn bags for oysters and calocybe

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Offlinesuperfunkibey
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: sparkle]
    #17785609 - 02/11/13 08:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

@Sparkle,

What species of oysters are you using?  I'd like to order some spawn bags from you if it's ok.  I'll be trying to make my own bags again soon.

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OfflineHumbled
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Darkman]
    #17789165 - 02/12/13 12:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Awesome Sparkle!:rockon:
This technique would be such a labor saver if it were consistent with results. I wish I had that much grain to play with and enough workers to get almost 2 tons of grain spawn inoculated.

You must have an impressive operation Sparkle. I've never really considered how large-scale things can be pushed with a bit of ingenious inspiration.


  RR- I like the way you put it with the concept of a window of opportunity. Grain 'sterilization' in a pressure cooker now seems to me like an intense pasteurization.


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OfflineShu
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Humbled]
    #17791613 - 02/12/13 07:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Since we're talking about commercial food production, I think it's worth a second to mention a few things...

By almost everyones definition, anything can be sterilized at 121C for 10/12 minutes. It's called overkill sterilization, the trick is that we're talking about the temperature of the material being sterilized, not the temperature of the retort. When we talk about the temperature of the retort we say "autoclave" not "sterilize" at 121C, as can be seen here. Autoclave cycle times are set to adjust for the thermal conductivity and quantity of the material and container to be sterilized.

Also, most understand that pasteurization is the destruction of sufficient pathogenic organisms to prevent disease.  However, industry, educators and we have extended the term pasteurize to include destruction of "unwanted" organisms sufficient to the purpose at hand. As RR implied, (for us) the unwanted organisms are sufficiently destroyed to allow the preferred organism to flourish in the time period and temperature necessary for colonization.

Therefore, Sparkle wishes to pasteurize her grain at the minimum temp and time required to allow complete colonization by her target organism and with an insignificant number of failed bags. For that, there is insufficient information available to perform the calculations.

Sorry for the rant.

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Offlinetrout
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: Shu]
    #17792196 - 02/12/13 08:56 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You rock my world Sparkle!  That is awesome and inspiring. Lets hope for even less contams this time. 26 hrs. Was steam running the whole time?  I wonder what a better insulated room would do to lessen the time needed to reach temps? What type of bags are you using?  I can't imagine going through that many filter bags. 

Trout


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I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Bulk sterilization under tarp actually works! [Re: trout]
    #17792356 - 02/12/13 09:30 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

sparkle you are awesome!!:rockon:


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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Bags   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


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