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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: zappaisgod] * 2
    #17758493 - 02/06/13 08:51 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Oh boy, political polarization! That always helps disenfranchised people.

I personally would prefer not to measure the success of a society by the financial acquisitiveness of the people who can survive it. There are many nonmaterial realms in which it is possible to succeed in spite of being a broke drug addict. Brokeness and drug addiction certainly shouldn't be encouraged, but I think that's the problem with a certain strain of "compassion" in this day and age. Many liberals have recently abandoned their religion, but their religion hasn't abandoned them. They have the gut-level impulse to worship victims, and they can't do that without a fresh supply of victims. They have an emotional interest in helping victimized individuals and therefore in maintaining or inventing conditions that victimize people. This is an entire industry and political lobby.

I personally think the victim worshipers should integrate their prejudices, repent their secular ways, and open legitimately charitable churches, but then I'd be throwing in my chips with "Christians". You probably know which ones I mean. (Oh boy, political polarization!) Ostensibly there's no tax on churches because it's their responsibility to look after the social welfare, but they've been reduced to vile political machines asking for exemptions from their responsibilities and giving back less and less. Jesus doesn't go to church anymore.

Christopher Hitchens wrote entire books about the poisoned compassion of Mother Teresa. Smart guy, that Hitch.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #17758845 - 02/06/13 09:48 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

I apologize for this thread, kind of. I was hoping for a thoughtful discussion and I was hoping we could all learn some things we didn't know before but it looks like we all got too heated.

I think what it all comes down to is we all have vastly different definitions of what a disease is and what an addiction is.

anyway I decided im going to detox and some sort of treatment program today.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #17758964 - 02/06/13 10:12 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

I didn't get heated. I'm no stranger to addiction, but I don't expect anybody (except possibly my parents, bless them, who taught me the love of the sauce) to take responsibility for my piss-poor decisions.

Good luck LZ. I'd like to offer the advice that detox programs vary WIDELY in quality and effectiveness. I once had a few sessions with a substance abuse counselor (mandated by my insurance plan at the time, after I admitted to drinking 3+ beers a night at one of their "health centers") and the guy was a complete asshole. The entire first session was a formulaic interrogation about my past drug use. After that the sessions consisted entirely of condescending remarks about "happy juices" (neurotransmitters) and worthless platitudes until he ran out of breath. Our sessions were scheduled to be an hour long each, but we always ran out of things to talk about after ten minutes. I stopped going after the third session and got dropped by my coverage. (Thanks, Kaiser!)

Now I know what most people know: always lie to doctors about factors affecting your health if you think it might stigmatize you. :wow:

I was already motivated to cut back on my drinking, and I did. I was honestly drinking much more than I'd let on and it honestly was a serious problem. This experience didn't help me. It was a humiliating waste of time and effort.

I'm not saying this to discourage you LZ, but I want to emphasize that you're the only one who can get yourself sober. If you expect too much help from people, somebody will stab you in the back. And I've never been to AA but I'd expect it has more than clinical condescension for people who are really trying to get sober. I figure I'll give it a try if my drinking ever gets out of control again, because the other options I know of aren't worth a hill of beans. I'd sooner take a vacation to Hawaii under my own supervision than put my faith in a rehab clinic. A friend of mine did alright with Narcanon which is a Scientology rig that employs questionable treatment methods, then he moved to North Dakota to take up permanent residence. :nonono:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17758987 - 02/06/13 10:16 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

This thread is 20 pages of the same thing


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: LiquidGlass] * 2
    #17759007 - 02/06/13 10:21 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

The final answer: "Depending on who you're talking to and what you're talking about, addiction either is or isn't a disease." :lol:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisiblebourgeo
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #17759025 - 02/06/13 10:23 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

It is empirical evidence vs. "No, it isn't a disease, because RESPONSIBILITY."


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Seraphically Free

From Taint of Personality


Edited by bourgeo (02/06/13 10:24 PM)

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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17759164 - 02/06/13 10:48 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I didn't get heated. I'm no stranger to addiction, but I don't expect anybody (except possibly my parents, bless them, who taught me the love of the sauce) to take responsibility for my piss-poor decisions.

Good luck LZ. I'd like to offer the advice that detox programs vary WIDELY in quality and effectiveness. I once had a few sessions with a substance abuse counselor (mandated by my insurance plan at the time, after I admitted to drinking 3+ beers a night at one of their "health centers") and the guy was a complete asshole. The entire first session was a formulaic interrogation about my past drug use. After that the sessions consisted entirely of condescending remarks about "happy juices" (neurotransmitters) and worthless platitudes until he ran out of breath. Our sessions were scheduled to be an hour long each, but we always ran out of things to talk about after ten minutes. I stopped going after the third session and got dropped by my coverage. (Thanks, Kaiser!)

Now I know what most people know: always lie to doctors about factors affecting your health if you think it might stigmatize you. :wow:

I was already motivated to cut back on my drinking, and I did. I was honestly drinking much more than I'd let on and it honestly was a serious problem. This experience didn't help me. It was a humiliating waste of time and effort.

I'm not saying this to discourage you LZ, but I want to emphasize that you're the only one who can get yourself sober. If you expect too much help from people, somebody will stab you in the back. And I've never been to AA but I'd expect it has more than clinical condescension for people who are really trying to get sober. I figure I'll give it a try if my drinking ever gets out of control again, because the other options I know of aren't worth a hill of beans. I'd sooner take a vacation to Hawaii under my own supervision than put my faith in a rehab clinic. A friend of mine did alright with Narcanon which is a Scientology rig that employs questionable treatment methods, then he moved to North Dakota to take up permanent residence. :nonono:




right, I have mixed feelings about rehab programs. but I need to go to detox atleast as a way to go through the withdrawal and get the drug out of my system. locking myself in a room for a week would work too, it doesn't have to be at a facility, but theres no where else I could really go for this purpose, besides jail.

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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #17759247 - 02/06/13 11:07 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

I am addicted to nicotine.  I haven't had a cigarette for about 2 months.  But, the cravings don't go away.  I have been an on/off smoker for more than twenty years.  In that time I quit for periods of more than a year.  Yet, the craving is always there.  The funny thing is that I have drank alcohol for the same period of time and I never crave it.  This is a classical example of how substances affect different people in different ways.  Is it a disease?  I answered no above, but after thinking about my tobacco cravings, maybe it is a disease. :shrug:

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #17759395 - 02/06/13 11:52 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

physicist said:
I am addicted to nicotine.  I haven't had a cigarette for about 2 months.  But, the cravings don't go away.  I have been an on/off smoker for more than twenty years.  In that time I quit for periods of more than a year.  Yet, the craving is always there.  The funny thing is that I have drank alcohol for the same period of time and I never crave it.  This is a classical example of how substances affect different people in different ways.  Is it a disease?  I answered no above, but after thinking about my tobacco cravings, maybe it is a disease. :shrug:




I happen to know I'll never beat alcohol cravings, and my strategy has been to just drink a little. I understand some people can't do that, but I'm glad I can, because I do love the sauce. It is hard but not impossible to stop after the second beer. The need to enjoy even a small amount of liquor has enabled me to drink good shit only, no piss-beer or 40's of malt liquor for me. I still sometimes drink more than I should but it has been several years since my habits were at their worst.

I only crave cigarettes when I'm stressed or under the influence of a dopamine-releasing agent such as alcohol or amphetamine. Give me a week of sober relaxation and I won't have a single nicotine craving. My brother, on the other hand... don't get on a plane with that guy. :lol: Weird stuff.

When you think about all the complex interactions between neurotransmitter systems that go on with this stuff, it just :mindblown:.
Sometimes I feel like I regret some of the decisions I've made, but I tell myself that my brain is a laboratory and my ultimate reason for doing any of it is pure curiosity. :awesomenod:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: deCypher]
    #17759540 - 02/07/13 12:43 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Reading all 19 pages of posters flinging verbal diarrhea at each other over at what is at its basis merely a semantic quibble made me want to shoot heroin into my jugular.  :syringe:



i didnt read any pages and was able to conclude that this was an instance of semantic clusterfuck :shrug:

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #17759707 - 02/07/13 01:49 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Led Zeppelin said:I have mixed feelings about rehab programs. but I need to go to detox atleast as a way to go through the withdrawal and get the drug out of my system. locking myself in a room for a week would work too, it doesn't have to be at a facility, but theres no where else I could really go for this purpose, besides jail.




I do have one more thing to add: your withdrawals may not be as bad as you expect them to be. Allow yourself the opportunity to be surprised by your own neuroplasticity. I honestly get the impression that opiate withdrawals are sensationalized a bit. You're youngish, right? I'm not saying the withdrawals aren't bad, but try tapering. Take just enough to stave off the withdrawals to a tolerable level, not enough to get high or even comfortable, then take the directed dose of Benadryl or Unisom (specifically, doxylamine) before bed. That shit will put you out cold, and what's some jittery anxiety? You don't need to spend your entire life wrapped in blankets of artificial bliss. If you know withdrawals will be rough, go hard on yourself. Only take enough to ensure you won't be a complete mess in public, but not enough to feel good. I think you can handle it.

Good luck, brother.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17759721 - 02/07/13 02:01 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

The final answer: "Depending on who you're talking to and what you're talking about, addiction either is or isn't a disease."



yep
Quote:


addictive behaviors can be characterized as a disease process, but to argue that something "is" or "isn't" a disease merely amounts to a semantic disconnect between communicants.





/thread

thanks for participating folks.

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #17759758 - 02/07/13 02:20 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Opiate w/d and DPH is absolute hell for me.  Be careful with that if it is severe, I would much rather just tough it out than be totally drained of all energy with the terrible RLS.  I think weed helps if you only do it once in a while, but if you smoke too much it will add to the misery and anxiety and create problems down the road.

If you aren't in a situation to quit consider suboxone for a bit, but those doctors are super shady and will want to keep you on for months years or life, don't listen to them.  If you want advice on that or anything else I've been on opiates for a long time and had a bunch of clean time in there too. 

You've got to be really committed and stubborn to get off, so brace yourself for a long haul with some tough decisions.  Being sick isn't even the worst part, it is confronting the things that lead you to use opiates in the first place: boredom, anxiety, disillusionment or whatever it is for you.  You really need to keep yourself occupied, you can't just lock yourself in a room or check into rehab and expect it to take care of itself.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17760152 - 02/07/13 06:25 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Reading all 19 pages of posters flinging verbal diarrhea at each other over at what is at its basis merely a semantic quibble made me want to shoot heroin into my jugular.  :syringe:



i didnt read any pages and was able to conclude that this was an instance of semantic clusterfuck :shrug:




It was mildly entertaining.  :shrug:

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
take the directed dose of Benadryl or Unisom (specifically, doxylamine) before bed. That shit will put you out cold




:lol:

Yeah, sorry, but Benadryl ain't gonna do shit if you're detoxing from a heavy habit. I remember once after four days with no sleep whatsoever I took over a gram of Seroquel to no effect.  Insomnia is the one side effect of the opiate detox that can make me crack; if I had all the other side effects of withdrawal without insomnia it'd be a walk in the park.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Is addiction a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17763660 - 02/07/13 06:52 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

physicist said:
I am addicted to nicotine.  I haven't had a cigarette for about 2 months.  But, the cravings don't go away.  I have been an on/off smoker for more than twenty years.  In that time I quit for periods of more than a year.  Yet, the craving is always there.  The funny thing is that I have drank alcohol for the same period of time and I never crave it.  This is a classical example of how substances affect different people in different ways.  Is it a disease?  I answered no above, but after thinking about my tobacco cravings, maybe it is a disease. :shrug:




I happen to know I'll never beat alcohol cravings, and my strategy has been to just drink a little. I understand some people can't do that, but I'm glad I can, because I do love the sauce. It is hard but not impossible to stop after the second beer. The need to enjoy even a small amount of liquor has enabled me to drink good shit only, no piss-beer or 40's of malt liquor for me. I still sometimes drink more than I should but it has been several years since my habits were at their worst.

I only crave cigarettes when I'm stressed or under the influence of a dopamine-releasing agent such as alcohol or amphetamine. Give me a week of sober relaxation and I won't have a single nicotine craving. My brother, on the other hand... don't get on a plane with that guy. :lol: Weird stuff.

When you think about all the complex interactions between neurotransmitter systems that go on with this stuff, it just :mindblown:.
Sometimes I feel like I regret some of the decisions I've made, but I tell myself that my brain is a laboratory and my ultimate reason for doing any of it is pure curiosity. :awesomenod:




I've tried that with cigarettes.  For instance, I won't buy any, and just bum them when I am around somebody smoking.  But, I can never get enough, so I'll break down and buy a pack.  The best way for me is to just not smoke at all. 

On another note, I am addicted to this website, and totally fucked without it.  Yet, I am not addicted to surfing the web, just the shroomery.  :strokebeard:

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