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Invisibletekramrepus
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Survival in the 21st century
    #1772661 - 08/02/03 01:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

After the age of 14, most of my life has been about finding the right mode of energy, or frequency , or adjustment if you will, as to how I should live my life. Seeking insight in forms of psychedelics, meditation, yoga, contemplation, wisdom from others, the internet, and even music, I have learned a great deal.

Life is most definately about survival. It is about surviving in order to reproduce, and then evolving. This is one basic pattern nature has made, in order to insure things flow correctly and in a forward matter. This is all assisted thanks to time.

I think now a time has come however, where a certain amount of humans have outgrown our current form of survival. The methods, techniques, and forms of survival the governments (mainly the industrial) around the world have used are now being recognized as detrimental not only to the planet, not only to all the creatures inhabiting the planet, but to HUMANITY itself. To blame the government is a fallacy, because government is often a reflection of our own selves. Perphaps we , in their situation - would take the same route.

What I am implying, is that in order for survival, not only of humanity, but of the creatures of this planet, and the planet itself - it appears as if a radical change is to occur. To change the external only, I believe the pattern would restart itself.

Here's an example. The government systems of the world begin to fail, because of their weak foundations. People all over the world begin to unite, help each other, etc. Eventually however, will a new form of government or control not be needed, and step up only to start the pattern of abuse all over again?

Then, an internal change is necessary. Internal being influences and also mirrors external being - so the most important change for the 21st century in humans would not have to be external, but more internal.


I have a belief. My belief is that , mainly the American Society (I have yet to venture outside of america) is built upon weak foundations. Any capitalistic society will eventually collapse, simply because the foundation is not strong. Jesus, quoted from the bible, once said something like "Build your temple from below the ground, so when strong winds come it does not blow away". That is not an exact quote, but the quote was to that extent. What I believe he was saying was that if you build your temple (body, system of government, family, etc) with strong foundations (love, unity, respect, compassion, HONESTY) then whenever times get tough, those roots that you started the temple with wil keep everything together. However, if you build your foundation weakly (based on simple survival, anger, aggression, dishonesty, or material-craving) it will crumble when great changes or troubles occur.

An example of this weak foundation not working, is this:

Perphaps I dress up as a bum. I go to atlanta, a rather big city. I approach 10 people with the same situation: "Hello, sir (or mam) I have NO place to live, yet I can cook, I am compassionate, and intelligent. I will help you and your family in anyway possible. Would you share your home with me?"

How many out of 10 do you think would actually share a home with me? A bum from the streets. How many, in a rather machine-like manner, would simple ignore me, and pretend I don't exist. This is the example of being raised in a weak foundation.


I also believe the cause of so much disease (cancer, aids, neurological diseases, tumors, etc) are the result of poor foundations of systems of government and living. It is a reflection of the inner turmoil we have brought upon ourselves. The medical industry itself is a weak foundation within a bigger weak foundation, and they have VERY, VERY little knowledge of the true human psyche and body - and are not able to heal on a complete level as of now. Do you see this getting better? I don't, because the medical establishment is built upon weak foundation (money and politics). Depression exists because of this as well.

The school systems , The medical system, basically every system within the American Governmental system is weakly founded, simply because it goes accordingly to the original pattern. A change of pattern is needed, but that must come from within.

Schooling is meant to raise you intellectually and somewhat physically. The purpose however, is NOT to guide a child into becoming a well-rounded, well-compassionate, and spiritual individual. Instead, the purpose of the educational system is to provide people the ability to function within the society created. It is a programming of thought, if you will. (Would a foundation built truthfully and strongly and justly raise it's own as sheep?)


I see america as built upon weak foundations, which is why I believe it is destined to crumble. Perphaps in 5 years, perphaps in 50, perphaps in another 250 years. My mind would say much sooner, however, then 250 years. Much, Much sooner. With all the turmoil in the world today - America could very easily turn upside down. The most common threat I see is warfare, causing the economy to shoot down extremely low.




I have choosen a different path. I will build my foundations strongly. I will build my foundations based on truth, brotherhood of man, compassion, loyalty, and in the name of Creation. I have choosen a path that will better humanity, not by my external doings, but by my internal work. How many people are ready to finally stand up, and admit that our current worldy system of living is NOT working, and that EVERYONE can do something about it.



This does not mean quit your day job, nor does it mean become a "hippie". All it means it do readjust your energy in order to be more efficient to the world around you. Start helping, start being positive, and start doing internal work on your body and mind. This itself is healing, and to heal oneself is one of the greatest things you can do.


Everyone has their own path they can set with what they want. Some people may choose to leave the system completely, and form underground brotherhoods (much like hippies, or built communes). Some people will choose to work within the system, spreading their wisdom and love almost as a cure to a disease.



All in all, it comes down to the fact that our current system has been weakly built, and we need to change this. Hating the government, the people who do you wrong, etc is NOT a positive change. That is nonacceptance of what reality is, and will only make your development suffer.

Instead, we must fully accept the knot we have gotten ourselves into, and move from there, step by step.






Well, what do you guys think?


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1772696 - 08/02/03 02:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no... I think we should blow it all up. love doesn't cure hate.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1773485 - 08/02/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Education is KEY  :wink:

If we were all just educated properly, we would not be in this mess  :mad:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: trendal]
    #1773591 - 08/02/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No, we still would be. The problem is the basic selfishness of humans.

For humanity to transcend its current state would require a fundamental shift in consciousness; a move from individual focus to group awareness.

However, I don't forsee it happening in the near future. More likely is a general collapse of social order and a reversion to anarchistic warlordism, followed by a move to dictatorship, and maybe eventually on to a democratic republic. Then that'll collapse, and the cycle will repeat itself.


Alternately, we'll have a global catastrophe that wipes out most or all of humanity. If any humans survive, they'll be forced back into a tribal mindset in which the survival of the group is more important than the survival of the individual - and, gradually, humanity will claw its way back on up. With luck, it will have become enlightened enough at that point to advance past the current state of humanity, to a level where utopian visions can become reality.


Personally, I don't think it's possible for humanity to advance without some kind of global catastrophe. Remember that the first purpose of any government is maintaining its own power, and it will go to any length to achieve that. As long as governments exist, humanity will not advance. But as long as humanity is selfish, governments must exist. Only through the destruction of both selfishness and governments can humanity advance.


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"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1773716 - 08/02/03 09:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A thoughtful post indeed, supermarket! A few questions for you. You say --

I think now a time has come however, where a certain amount of humans have outgrown our current form of survival.

Which is?

The mode of survival of homo sapiens sapiens has always been to use productive effort to acquire the values required for survival -- water, food, shelter, etc. In what way do you believe we have "outgrown" this method?

The methods, techniques, and forms of survival the governments (mainly the industrial) around the world have used are now being recognized as detrimental not only to the planet, not only to all the creatures inhabiting the planet, but to HUMANITY itself.

Recognized by whom?

Don't confuse the methods which governments utilize to further their existence with the methods required by homo sapiens sapiens to further their existence. Governments survive not through the expenditure of productive effort, but by the confiscation of the products of those who expend the effort.

To blame the government is a fallacy, because government is often a reflection of our own selves. Perphaps we , in their situation - would take the same route.

No "perhaps" about it. All schemes initiated by governments to "redistribute" wealth come at the request of their constituents. Why do you believe these requests are so much more common today than they were a hundred years ago? Do you see it as part of the outgrowing of our current means of survival?

The government systems of the world begin to fail, because of their weak foundations.

There are many different forms of government. Do you believe all have the same foundations? If so, what do you identify as the common foundation, and why do you perceive it to be "weak"?

Eventually however, will a new form of government or control not be needed, and step up only to start the pattern of abuse all over again?

The way you phrase the question implies that you believe such a government or control will be needed. Why do you think this is so, and what do you feel is the least possible amount of government/control we can get away with?

My belief is that , mainly the American Society (I have yet to venture outside of america) is built upon weak foundations. Any capitalistic society will eventually collapse, simply because the foundation is not strong.

Hmmm. This is the second time you have stated your belief in weak foundations. I ask the same question I asked above.

What I believe he was saying was that if you build your temple (body, system of government, family, etc) with strong foundations (love, unity, respect, compassion, HONESTY) then whenever times get tough, those roots that you started the temple with wil keep everything together.

Those attributes are a good foundation for a relationship with family and friends. Do you believe a government needs no more than those attributes in order to justify its existence? What about justice and protection?

However, if you build your foundation weakly (based on simple survival, anger, aggression, dishonesty, or material-craving) it will crumble when great changes or troubles occur.

Well, those attributes certainly describe some governments that have existed, but I fail to see the connection between that list and the government of the United States, for example.

I also believe the cause of so much disease (cancer, aids, neurological diseases, tumors, etc) are the result of poor foundations of systems of government and living. It is a reflection of the inner turmoil we have brought upon ourselves.

How is the existence of the AIDS virus a fault of government? Could you provide a chain of events illustrating this?

The medical industry itself is a weak foundation within a bigger weak foundation, and they have VERY, VERY little knowledge of the true human psyche and body - and are not able to heal on a complete level as of now. Do you see this getting better? I don't, because the medical establishment is built upon weak foundation (money and politics). Depression exists because of this as well.

I had meant to limit myself to just asking for clarification, but here I must beg to differ. There is no area of science which has made more progress in the last fifty years than medicine. Not only do I see it better, it is indisputably getting better. Further, medicine is not built on any foundation other than the scientific method.

The school systems , The medical system, basically every system within the American Governmental system is weakly founded, simply because it goes accordingly to the original pattern. A change of pattern is needed, but that must come from within.

Again with the "weak foundation". Again I ask for something more specific than a vague general assertion.

I see america as built upon weak foundations, which is why I believe it is destined to crumble.

See above.

America was the first (and many say the only) country whose foundation was the State recognition and protection of individual rights. The Founding Fathers were the first to espouse the idea that the State was not created to give people freedom, but to protect it.

What part of this foundation do you perceive as weak?

With all the turmoil in the world today - America could very easily turn upside down. The most common threat I see is warfare, causing the economy to shoot down extremely low.

Do you believe America will be conquered? Or is it that you believe American politicians will be suckered into entering too many wars that they could choose to stay out of?

How many people are ready to finally stand up, and admit that our current worldy system of living is NOT working, and that EVERYONE can do something about it.

I'm not sure I get your point. The way I live my life works for me, and does no harm to others. My guess is the majority of the posters in this forum could honestly say the same thing.

Well, what do you guys think?

I have no objections to any of the things you plan to do, nor do I object to your trying to persuade others to do the same things. The foundation of the American system of Government was custom-built for people like yourself to advocate these changes. This is why your repeated assertion of its "weak foundation" quite frankly baffles me. Help me out here.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: Phred]
    #1774837 - 08/03/03 04:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Very good, Supermarket! Nice post indeed. Have you been reading much Dan Millman lately? hehehe, sounds like you may have been chanelling him a bit :smile:


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1775101 - 08/03/03 11:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Amnesiac said:
Very good, Supermarket! Nice post indeed. Have you been reading much Dan Millman lately? hehehe, sounds like you may have been chanelling him a bit :smile: 





nope! I always figured Dan Millman was rather pro-establishment, or atleast never confronted or challenged any established system of control in the books Ive read of him writing.

I have read his work in the past, mainly "Way of the Peaceful Warrior", "Sacred Journeys of the Peaceful Warrior" , and "Laws of Spirit"

Good man, from what I can tell


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Invisiblefarfelu
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1775266 - 08/03/03 01:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I have choosen a different path. I will build my foundations strongly. I will build my foundations based on truth, brotherhood of man, compassion, loyalty, and in the name of Creation. I have choosen a path that will better humanity, not by my external doings, but by my internal work. How many people are ready to finally stand up, and admit that our current worldy system of living is NOT working, and that EVERYONE can do something about it.

This does not mean quit your day job, nor does it mean become a "hippie". All it means it do readjust your energy in order to be more efficient to the world around you. Start helping, start being positive, and start doing internal work on your body and mind. This itself is healing, and to heal oneself is one of the greatest things you can do.

Everyone has their own path they can set with what they want. Some people may choose to leave the system completely, and form underground brotherhoods (much like hippies, or built communes). Some people will choose to work within the system, spreading their wisdom and love almost as a cure to a disease.

All in all, it comes down to the fact that our current system has been weakly built, and we need to change this. Hating the government, the people who do you wrong, etc is NOT a positive change. That is nonacceptance of what reality is, and will only make your development suffer.

Instead, we must fully accept the knot we have gotten ourselves into, and move from there, step by step.

Well, what do you guys think?




I think this is a very thoughtful post. Well done.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: farfelu]
    #1776042 - 08/03/03 06:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I agree; it is a very thoughtful and interesting post.

One of the primary points that I got from your essay was your belief (although you didn't state it as such) that in order to continue, some of us will simply need to evolve.  And I don't mean 'evolve' in the metaphorical sense.  I mean, actually evolve.  Become a new species, with new characteristics and capabilities.

While I have read a good bit on the nature of intelligence from both the biological and anthropological point of view, I have never seen anything particularly interesting on the theory that we are approaching some sort of evolutionary crux.  Does anyone know of anyone who has written on this?  I'd sure be interested in seeing what it is...

I've often wondered if intelligence alone would be enough to solve the issues that we face as a species, were we ever able to remove the un/less intelligent from the equation.  Obviously, it's an intellectual exercise at best - but an interesting thought.  Well, to me, at least.  I'm a geek :smile:


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1776270 - 08/03/03 08:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

never make eye contact...


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1776554 - 08/03/03 10:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Uh.. You lost me :frown:


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: Phred]
    #1777583 - 08/04/03 09:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I hope supermarket doesnt mind if I address a few of the points you've raised Pinky but Im in agreement with much of what he says.

Quote:

I think now a time has come however, where a certain amount of humans have outgrown our current form of survival.
Which is? 




I think the prevalent form of survival today puts the individual's survival above that of the group. In fact that doesnt accurately describe the problem. It seems to me that generally people will put their individual comfort, not survival, above the actual survival of other members of our species. I.e In a world where we have the resources available to feed the whole world, vast portions of humanity still starve.

The current form of survival thrives on competition between those involved, it needs winners and losers to designate how well one has managed to "survive". The problem with this form of survival stems from the fact that it has become too successful. In the west we reached a point where our survival was secured a long time ago but we cant stop playing the game of "winners and losers"
Many people have begun to realise that we stand a better chance of long term survival as a species through discarding this method. Instead, as soon as an individual has secured hir own survival the individual's primary motive should change so the survival of the group takes priority in hir motivations. Obviously people cannot have this kind of thinking forced upon them. People arrive at these conclusions through an internal process. Call it spirituality or whatever you prefer.

Quote:

The methods, techniques, and forms of survival the governments (mainly the industrial) around the world have used are now being recognized as detrimental not only to the planet, not only to all the creatures inhabiting the planet, but to HUMANITY itself.

Recognized by whom?

Don't confuse the methods which governments utilize to further their existence with the methods required by homo sapiens sapiens to further their existence. Governments survive not through the expenditure of productive effort, but by the confiscation of the products of those who expend the effort.





Governments can legislate against harmful technologies and methods of industry instead of supporting them and making their existance easier.

Quote:

The government systems of the world begin to fail, because of their weak foundations.

There are many different forms of government. Do you believe all have the same foundations? If so, what do you identify as the common foundation, and why do you perceive it to be "weak"?




The method of survival I outlined above i.e where individual comfort takes priortiy over group survival demonstrates one area where governments base themselves on weak foundations. You can tack on irrational greed and fear also. These factors all relate to each other.

Quote:

However, if you build your foundation weakly (based on simple survival, anger, aggression, dishonesty, or material-craving) it will crumble when great changes or troubles occur.

Well, those attributes certainly describe some governments that have existed, but I fail to see the connection between that list and the government of the United States, for example.





Anger - The reaction to 9/11 and the subsequent actions taken by the US govt.

Agression - Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam etc etc. I dont think you can really deny the US govt has always shown a high level of agression. Even if the agression hides itself in terms such as "patriotism" or "righteousness" and the like

Dishonesty - Watergate, Oliver North, Clinton, The basis for the Iraq war.

Material craving - The desire to control oil, the desire to see US industry succeed in spite of the damage they may do to other countries.

Quote:

I must beg to differ. There is no area of science which has made more progress in the last fifty years than medicine.




Just being awkward here but how about I.T?!  :smirk:

Heres a link to a guy who believes that selfish individuals will succeed in a selfish group but altruitic groups will succeed over selfish groups..thats the jist anyway and sort of what I think Supermarket might be getting at

Niceness

Basically I agree with Supermarket when he says that the external will mirror the internal so we must make the effort to change our internal view first, as we can change this, instead of simply letting our own internal view mirror the external.

Peace   


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777701 - 08/04/03 10:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Congratulations, youve connected with my thoughts and are in agreement with them :smile: Perphaps that means you understand true peace, or have experienced it....because my ideals are not foreign, they are that of a peaceful and progressive view for humanity - although peaceful and progressive have not gone hand in hand with humanity as of yet!


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1777703 - 08/04/03 10:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"...although peaceful and progressive have not gone hand in hand with humanity as of yet!"

and the reason I clearly state again is because we've tried to progress outwards without focusing on the inwards ....sometimes humanity reminds me of a bunch of children who in their hearts have good intentions, but don't understand whats going on :frown:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1777737 - 08/04/03 11:05 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have held these beliefs for quite sometime and yes I think I have experienced true peace.  :grin: It made me very happy! 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Survival in the 21st century *DELETED* [Re: GazzBut]
    #1777883 - 08/04/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: poke smot!]
    #1778045 - 08/04/03 01:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

pokesmot writes:

Perhaps you're evaluating the current administration, and not the foundations that the government was... well, founded on. The concepts and ideas of representation, balance of power, the constitution and bill of rights. All of these are the foundation which we originally modelled the government.

Very astute observation.

The excessess and bad judgment of more recent administrations are not because of a "weak foundation", but in spite of a strong foundation. No one can argue that the reality of American government in the 21st century is a very far cry from the reality of that government in the 18th century.

Americans had the best foundation of government mankind has yet to devise and they still managed to screw it up. The perversity of Homo sapiens sapiens is apparently limitless.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: Phred]
    #1778361 - 08/04/03 03:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
The excessess and bad judgment of more recent administrations are not because of a "weak foundation", but in spite of a strong foundation. No one can argue that the reality of American government in the 21st century is a very far cry from the reality of that government in the 18th century.




Amen to that.

Quote:

Americans had the best foundation of government mankind has yet to devise and they still managed to screw it up. The perversity of Homo sapiens sapiens is apparently limitless.




And a double-live a-fooking-men to that!


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1778417 - 08/04/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yes, the original foundations of the government were weak. Perphaps not from a text-book perspective, but rather from , in my opinion, what the country was REALLY based on.


America was not created to form liberation, or help fight for freedom, like textbooks will state. It was not created in the adversary of taxation or in the unity of mankind. It was built as a growth, or expansion, much like a cancerous growth.

There is no doubt that the American Government that originally started in 1776 or so was and still is not one of the best governments to be craeted thus far. Regardless - its the less rotten apple out of a rotten bunch. Doesn't mean it still won't make you sick when you eat it.


I believe the country was built with money and wealth and security in mind - there is no doubt about that. It was built with the idea of a select high society controlling the politics, and a weak/low class poor society working for them.


Thats my opinion though


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Survival in the 21st century [Re: poke smot!]
    #1780631 - 08/05/03 06:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think in general the US public did not wish to become involved in WWII but I think the adminstration at the time felt quite keen to join in. Dont forget that those same people authorised the dropping of an atomic bomb on a civillian population. Perhaps the single most aggressive act in the history of humanity?


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Always Smi2le


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